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Re: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a. [ACTION-434]

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:30:40 +0100
Message-ID: <512E1890.9030006@w3.org>
To: "Dr. David Filip" <David.Filip@ul.ie>
CC: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com>, public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org, Arle Lommel <arle.lommel@dfki.de>, Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>, public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org, "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com>
Hi David,

just FYI, Christian (see CC) also volunteered to be a co-editor. So he 
would take over this editing item.

Best,

Felix


Am 27.02.13 15:16, schrieb Dr. David Filip:
> Hi co-editors,
>
> the note as formulated below by Christian has been OKed by all
> stakeholders, now we are looking for a co-editor volunteer to
> implement this into the spec in order to be able to close the issue.
> I will create the editorial action for you to keep track if you volunteer :-)
>
> Thanks
> dF
>
> Dr. David Filip
> =======================
> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
> University of Limerick, Ireland
> telephone: +353-6120-2781
> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> The text looks fine to me.
>>
>> -yves
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jörg Schütz [mailto:joerg@bioloom.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:18 AM
>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a. [ACTION-434]
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I already gave my OK but here it is again.
>>
>> Cheers -- Jörg
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2013 at 12:10 (UTC+1), Dr. David Filip wrote:
>>> Hi Christian, all,
>>>
>>> we heard from Jan and Pablo that the text proposed by Christian to
>>> resolve the Issue-75 works for them.
>>> @Yves, @Jörg, I guess we need mainly the two of you to OK this to be
>>> able close this one.
>>>
>>> Rgds
>>> dF
>>>
>>> Dr. David Filip
>>> =======================
>>> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
>>> University of Limerick, Ireland
>>> telephone: +353-6120-2781
>>> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
>>> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
>>> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Lieske, Christian
>>> <christian.lieske@sap.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I had an action item to re-write the note related to "domainMapping" in "multi-engine" scenarios. Here is comes ...
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Christian
>>>> ==
>>>> Although the focus of ITS 2.0, and some of the usage scenarios addressed in ITS 2.0 showcases (see http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase) is on “single engine” environments, ITS 2.0 - for example in the context of the "domain" data category - can accommodate "workflow/multi engine" scenarios.
>>>>
>>>> Example:
>>>>
>>>> - A scenario involves Machine Translation (MT) engines A and B. The domain labels used by engine A follow the naming scheme A_123, the one for engine B follow the naming scheme B_456.
>>>> - A "domainMapping" like the following is in place: domainMapping="'sports law' Legal, 'property law' Legal"
>>>> - Engine A maps 'Legal' to A_4711, Engine B maps 'Legal' to B_42.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, ITS does not encode a process or workflow (like "Use MT engine A with domain A_4711, and use MT engine B with domain A_42"). Rather, it encodes information that can be used in workflows.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jörg Schütz [mailto:joerg@bioloom.de]
>>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2013 09:37
>>>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a. incl. 2.b. and 1.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Felix and all,
>>>>
>>>> Here is my suggestion for a note (native speakers please correct):
>>>>
>>>> Bear in mind that ITS is first and foremost a powerful markup
>>>> technology to add metadata to (Web) content. In this sense, it is not
>>>> a (direct) means to support, or even drive process or workflow
>>>> engines, although some of the data categories like provenance,
>>>> domain, domain mapping, etc. may induce such a view. Since this ITS
>>>> metadata enhances the content in a structured way and in multiple
>>>> forms, ITS consuming agents can employ that data to effectively
>>>> implement their usage or deployment scenarios within single engine or
>>>> single process environments as well as within multi-engine
>>>> environments such as "try MT engine A, then MT engine B, ..." (see
>>>> also ITS 2.0 showcases at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase).
>>>> It is, however, not possible to assign, say, a specific domain
>>>> mapping incarnation to a certain (process or workflow) instance
>>>> because such an assignment concerns the process side, and this is
>>>> beyond the current ITS metadata scope.
>>>>
>>>> With this, we now have apparently reached consensus on 2.a., 2.b.
>>>> (already reviewed by Christian), and 1. (shepherd's view...)
>>>>
>>>> [@Yves: 1. is independent of the domain mapping specs.]
>>>>
>>>> Cheers -- Jörg
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 29, 2013, at 18:15 (CET), Felix Sasaki wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jan, all,
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks a lot for the initial note, Christian, and for comments in
>>>>> this thread. It seems that Yves made clear that
>>>>>
>>>>> “try MT engine A, then MT engine B”
>>>>>
>>>>> may indeed work with the ITS domain mechanism - but there is a lot
>>>>> of white spaces including
>>>>>
>>>>> “try MT engine A with domain ‘financials’, then try MT engine B with
>>>>> domain ‘healthcare’”
>>>>> and layering of many other processing types. So maybe a final note
>>>>> could concentrate on these white spaces? Anybody volunteering to
>>>>> re-write the note?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Felix
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 29.01.13 17:15, schrieb Jan Nelson:
>>>>>> I find it a reasonable practice to define what is not in scope as a
>>>>>> part of any specification, though agree that clear statements of in
>>>>>> scope features are crucial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am curious about how a multi-engine selection/validation process
>>>>>> works.  Christian, you mentioned both TM services as well as MT
>>>>>> engines.  I can see value to be able to call from a set of services
>>>>>> depending on domain with fallback based on result quality scores.
>>>>>> And you state that ITS 2.0 might be a single service scoped spec.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yves, you believe that there is support for more than one MT engine
>>>>>> as currently spec'd.  My interest in the white spaces between the
>>>>>> two comments are when layering n-services of differing processing
>>>>>> types, e.g., fuzzy matching TM services versus statistical MT
>>>>>> engine results and how that plays out.  It seems very ambitious to
>>>>>> me to provide scope for this, and yet having a system that is
>>>>>> capable of providing the kinds of metadata needed to enable it
>>>>>> would be a pretty powerful in terms of the potential to provide hi-fi results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe my comments are far out of scope, but the thread here caught
>>>>>> my attention.  If this the case, I am happy to discuss it more
>>>>>> offline, perhaps in Rome over a coffee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:55 AM
>>>>>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Christian, all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m always a bit uncomfortable with stating what a mechanism is NOT
>>>>>> doing in a specification. It seems we should be able to define what
>>>>>> it does do and that should be sufficient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would also argue that the scenario “try MT engine A, then MT
>>>>>> engine B” can work perfectly well with what we have today. The
>>>>>> specification provides domainMapping for some basic mappings that
>>>>>> allow for example to point multiple keywords to a more common unique 'domain' label.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example you have a mapping as this: domainMapping="'sports law'
>>>>>> Legal, 'property law' Legal"
>>>>>> and two MT engines: they each have a user-defined table that
>>>>>> provide additional re-direction (they are even possibly pair
>>>>>> specific: one maps 'Legal' to 'LEGAL_EN_PT' and the other maps
>>>>>> 'Legal' to '5242e0762354527_legal'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using domainMapping for more than simple grouping is bound to have
>>>>>> quick limitations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a) what if you add a third MT engine? You have to edit every single
>>>>>> rules document to add the new mapping?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b) how do you map to engine that are defined per pair?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMO the mapping to the values used to slect the MT engine belongs
>>>>>> to the process side, not the input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>> -yves
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Lieske, Christian [mailto:christian.lieske@sap.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:11 AM
>>>>>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>>>>>> Subject: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of my comments related to “domain” (see
>>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comme
>>>>>> nts/2013Jan/0022.html)
>>>>>> was the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.a. Domain "systems" may not be harmonized across a processing chain.
>>>>>> A Translation Memory component may for example work with different
>>>>>> domains than a Machine Translation system that is part of the same
>>>>>> processing chain. Since ITS 2.0 "domain" currently does not allow
>>>>>> to capture the information "This is for component X" these
>>>>>> scenarios cannot be addressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During the face-to-face in Prague, we achieved the following status
>>>>>> (see http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item09): a
>>>>>> note should explain that “domain” (and possibly other data
>>>>>> categories) do not accommodate what could be called multi-engine scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is my suggestion for a note …
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The focus of ITS 2.0, and some of the usage scenarios addressed in
>>>>>> ITS
>>>>>> 2.0 showcases (see
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-
>>>>>> _high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase)
>>>>>> is on “single engine” environments. Example: the Machine
>>>>>> Translation
>>>>>> (MT) usage scenarios do not work along the lines of process chains
>>>>>> such as “try MT engine A, then MT engine B”. Accordingly, ITS 2.0
>>>>>> has few provisions to support this kind of “multi-engine”
>>>>>> environments which for example require domain-related information
>>>>>> such as “try MT engine A with domain ‘financials’, then try MT
>>>>>> engine B with domain ‘healthcare’”.
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Christian
>>
>>
Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2013 14:31:09 UTC

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