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[Minutes] MLW-LT call 2013-02-25 and action for implementers / review dry run

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:41:30 +0100
Message-ID: <512BA24A.7020700@w3.org>
To: "public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org" <public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org>
Hi all,

minutes are at
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html
and below as text. Two important action items:

- please fill in the doodle poll for Luxembourg, see 
http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
- HTML implementers: have a look at
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item04
and the discussion on defaults for HTML. The default implementation 
proposal at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html
may put some burden on implementers, see e.g.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html
before moving this forward we need to be sure that this is feasible. We 
will discuss the topic again on Wednesday.


Best,

Felix


- Felix


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT WG

25 Feb 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-irc

Attendees

    Present
           joerg, felix, kfritsche, Ankit, Des, Pedro, omstefanov,
           Jirka, Yves, shaunm, Marcis, pnietoca, leroy, mdelolmo,
           Giuseppe, Milan, tadej, davelewis

    Regrets
           christian, clemens, dom

    Chair
           felix

    Scribe
           shaunm

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]agenda
          2. [6]High level usage scenario doc publication
          3. [7]HTML ITS default behaviour
          4. [8]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt
             /track/issues/68
          5. [9]Conformance type
          6. [10]XLIFF mapping
          7. [11]Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS
             Ontology
          8. [12]AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
      * [13]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

agenda

    <fsasaki>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0241.html

      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html

High level usage scenario doc publication

    <fsasaki>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use
    _cases_-_high_level_summary

      [15] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary

    <fsasaki> - having Christian editing the doc until next Monday
    - vote for publication 6 March call - publication 8 March

    <fsasaki> next monday = 4 march

    fsasaki: publishing march 8. last date before the workshop
    ... Please go through your use cases

HTML ITS default behaviour

    Yves_: there is discrepancy in behavior between different data
    categories in HTML
    ... when an author marks up a document because of different
    behavior in different tools
    ... we don't specify things like the <b> element should be
    withinText

    <fsasaki> ITS 1.0 global rules are at
    [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml

      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml

    Yves_: we could have a set of global rules for HTML that
    implementors must use
    ... if you don't implement global rules, this won't work.
    instead have default attributes

    <fsasaki> default implementation proposal at
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0235.html

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html

    Yves_: implementation of such defaults is probably difficult

    <fsasaki>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0243.html

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html

    Yves_: implementation is not a problem for okapi

    <fsasaki>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0205.html

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0205.html

    pnietoca: some MT systems hardcode translation of some
    attributes

    <fsasaki>
    [20]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085

      [20] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085

    Yves_: currently html translate affects attribute and
    its:translate does not

    <fsasaki>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories
    -defaults-etc

      [21] http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories-defaults-etc

    kfritsche: in our implementation, we use non HTML specific
    defaults from the ITS spec, sec. 8.1

    <Marcis> Will there be a list of defaults somewhere specified?
    We are currently adding Elements Within Text rules within HTML
    documents...

    pnietoca: we use global rules for translate, for instance.
    ... if some people don't use it, you have to hardcode which
    attributes to translate

    kfritsche: is this the proposal to change the default values in
    table 8.1?

    Yves_: proposal is to have in the html specification
    information on defaults

    fsasaki: or we could provide a global rules file
    ... I was proposing the defaults for people only doing its
    locally

    Yves_: there's a discrepancy between defaults and global rules
    because of overriding
    ... people who don't implement ITS globally just have to make
    sure the behavior with defaults matches what it would be with
    default values

    <fsasaki> shaun: issue of not knowing what you are overriding
    with local attributes - that is an issue with any format right?

    <fsasaki> yves: yes

    <fsasaki> shaun: who are the implementers who don't do global
    rules?

    <fsasaki>
    [22]http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnl
    e/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html

      [22] http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html

    <fsasaki> it seems everybody of the implementers currently on
    the table, do global rules

    <fsasaki> karl: new implementers might do local markup only -
    we should be aware of that

    <fsasaki> shaun: there is no implementation difficulty for me
    either way

    fsasaki: propose not to close this issue too fast
    ... other people not on the call might have different opinions

    Yves_: implementors could look at their implementations to see
    how difficult defaults versus global rules is

    fsasaki: give implementors time, come back to issue next
    wednesday

    <daveL> apologies for joining late

[23]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/
68

      [23] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68

    <fsasaki> see draft + example files here
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0221.html

      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

    tadej: no major contents changes. sent a draft to the mailing
    list
    ... we are dropping granularity levels, renaming to text
    analysis, clarified some

    <fsasaki> ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Edit issue-68 proposal at
    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [on Christian Lieske -
    due 2013-03-04].

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

    <fsasaki>
    [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip

      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip

    omstefanov: all the file names in the test suite still refer to
    disambiguation

    tadej: should we rename all the files?

    leroy: yes, and move to directories named for the category

Conformance type

    <fsasaki>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html

    fsasaki: needs input from Phil. Phil not present today

XLIFF mapping

    daveL: xliff round-trip examples for rome help use work through
    some issues
    ... we need separate discussions on how best to present that as
    best practices. don't spend time on that now. maybe in rome

    Yves_: while discussing terminology, we realized when you tag
    something in xliff, we don't have a way to mark it up with ITS
    in the original document

    <Marcis> A question: if we add mark-up to XLIFF, should we use
    the mrk or its:span annotation?

    daveL: in XLIFF we can add things after authoring time; don't
    have local markup for these in ITS

    <Yves_> to marcis: <mrk> (you can't have <its:span> in XLIFF)

    Yves_: you can add ITS attributes to <mrk>. some are redundant
    with XLIFF attributes

    <fsasaki>
    [30]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLI
    FF_Mapping

      [30] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping

    daveL: three use cases: mapping from source format to XLIFF,
    mapping from XLIFF to target format, marking up XLIFF to be
    consumed in XLIFF in another process
    ... ideally have the same markup in all those cases, but might
    not be possible

Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS Ontology

    <fsasaki>
    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html

    fsasaki: don't require normalization in other technologies.
    propose to close issue

    <fsasaki>
    [32]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
    ssues/119

      [32] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/119

    <fsasaki>
    [33]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS
    -RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29

      [33] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29

    daveL: expanded that out of example in NIF
    ... took a Relax NG schema and went through data categories to
    see which could be used in RDF and NIF
    ... appreciate feedback
    ... haven't figured out what we need to do with annotators ref.
    works out in provenance setting, but maybe not NIF
    ... problems where we've introduced idea that order has
    temporal relationship

AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep

    <fsasaki> [34]http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9

      [34] http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9

    fsasaki: have a call to prepare for rome meeting. please fill
    in doodle poll

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
    [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

      [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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Received on Monday, 25 February 2013 17:42:01 UTC

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