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[Minutes and clarifications / question] MLW-LT working group call 2012-11-12

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:39:14 +0100
Message-ID: <CAL58czrxzNtR67xes_nDtU3BuSG-vhzrt1kpt6MdYVUJkwrpEg@mail.gmail.com>
To: public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org
Hi all,

minutes are at http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html and below
as text. Some clarifications:

1) Pablo asked on IRC: "I believe that the agreement al Lyon was we use
neither its- nor its: am I correct?"
I think so to. Leroy, can you confirm that this is the way to go?

2) About Dave's question "Can we add an optional elements to terminology
from a backward compatibility standpoint?"
>From a backwards compatibility point of view, yes. From a timeline point of
view, I would say if there is no proposal by the end of this week: no.

Best,

Felix

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                               MLW-LT WG

12 Nov 2012

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0081.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-irc

Attendees

   Present
          felix, dF, ankit, arle, yves, dom, georgios, shaun,
          leroy, naoto, pnietoca, dave, renat, des, christian,
          philr, fredrik, milan

   Regrets
          olaf-michael, pedro, tadej, jirka, jörg

   Chair
          felix

   Scribe
          Arle

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Action items
         2. [6]Work schedule update
         3. [7]Update on XLIFF-ITS mapping.
         4. [8]2013 planning
         5. [9]Data category overview table
         6. [10]Test suite format
         7. [11]mtconfidence
         8. [12]Too many pointers / global rules
         9. [13]Remove "HTML5 inline" markup for standoff markup
        10. [14]Rename "translation provenance"
        11. [15]Tool information
        12. [16]issues sanitiy check
     * [17]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <dF> Rollcall

   <fsasaki> agenda at
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0081.html

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0081.html

Action items

   <fsasaki> action-263?

   <trackbot> ACTION-263 -- David Filip to summarize the options
   and the recommendations related to HTML parsing workflow in the
   CMS, see discussion at
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41 -- due
   2012-11-08 -- OPEN

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-mlw-lt-irc#T10-13-41

   <trackbot>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/ac
   tions/263

     [20] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/263

   Felix: This was discussed in face-to-face in Lyons. David, do
   you have an update or will you get to it?

   David: Yes, I finished this week.

   <fsasaki> action-281?

   <trackbot> ACTION-281 -- David Lewis to ask for use cases of
   data category-specific confidence scores -- due 2012-11-12 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [21]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/ac
   tions/281

     [21] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/281

   Felix: Dave, do you have an update on ACTION 281?

   Dave: After discussion with ???, I don't think the text
   analytic annotation works by itself. If you apply the same
   annotation to a span for different purposes, we run into
   overwrite problems. Flags don't help unless you got standoff
   markup.
   ... The other suggestion, made last week, is that MT confidence
   is fundamentally different. MT should not be merged with the
   others.
   ... Should we consider having a confidence score in those data
   categories? E.g., for terminology, disambiguation, domain.
   Although domain is very complex.
   ... Disambiguation and terminology might have their own
   optional confidence attribute. If you include it you need an
   ITS rules defined in the document for that data category.

   Felix: Do you need more time?

   Dave: We don't have a conclusion, so yes. Can we add an
   optional elements to terminology from a backward compatibility
   standpoint?

   Felix: Yes.

   Dave: Then I'll propose it on the list.

Work schedule update

   Felix: First week of December for last call.
   ... The dates are on the wiki.

   <fsasaki>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Mai
   n_Page#Upcoming

     [22] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page#Upcoming

   Felix: After the last call, we have six weeks to get comments
   from outside and then we will discuss at our face to face.
   ... Christian, can you introduce yourself?

   Christian: I work for SAP, been working on ITS for 15 years.
   Worked on multilingual content production. Background on NLP.
   My background that was noted was with terminology, work on
   interchange.
   ... Also worked on content interchange similar to XLIFF.
   ... Worked on XLIFF.
   ... Contributed to ITS 1.0.

Update on XLIFF-ITS mapping.

   <fsasaki>
   [23]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
   ssues/55

     [23] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/55

   David: I missed the last XLIFF TC call, but I believe the last
   call covered extensibility in <mrk> and <note>. Yves, can you
   update us?
   ... I'm worried that we may not be able to extend <mrk>.

   Yves: It would be better to have extensibility, but people
   would be happy with a module.

   David: The problem is that will take too long, so our markup
   would be illegal until that is defined.

   Yves: I think you will find a lot of opposition to extending
   <mrk> extensibility.
   ... If we can't add extensibility from our side that is an
   XLIFF problem. We should assume we can do it.

   <daveL>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLI
   FF_Mapping

     [24] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping

   Dave: You wanted to keep a pointer in for standoff markup.
   ... Scroll down in that link to where provenance is covered.
   There is something called phase group.

   <fsasaki>
   [25]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
   ts20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance-implementation

     [25] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance-implementation

   <fsasaki> search for "Or (standoff markup)"

   Dave: You could write a rule that uses pointers in provenance
   to map to these. These would be in addition to stand-off. The
   question is if we worry about doing this explicitly.

   Des: A question about this. Looking at the document, it looks
   like the mappings are fairly stable for XLIFF 1.2.

   Yves: Probably yes. There is no show-stopper. I think most are
   mapped correctly.

2013 planning

   David: I have an action to color-code things that are dependent
   on unstable things. But we needed to map this to see if there
   are show-stoppers.

   Felix: Skip this topic.

   <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to update the wiki with 2013 planning
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-285 - Update the wiki with 2013
   planning [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-11-19].

Data category overview table

   Felix: Think about any other venues we should go to. Also
   consider location for the final workshop in 2013.

   <fsasaki>
   [27]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
   ts20/its20.html#datacategories-overview

     [27] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#datacategories-overview

   Felix: Proposed that we replace this table in 6.1 with what
   Shaun and Olaf-Michael started. Thoughts?

   Shaun: The table there now has information not present in my
   table. Combining them would make a table that is too wide.

   Dave: Both have useful information, but combining them makes
   the table too big.
   ... Jirka provided an algorithm to do the mapping from XML
   attribute names to HTML names.

   Felix: So you think that Shaun and Olaf-Michael’s table as an
   appendix?

   <Des> Arle, for minuting purpose, my question was specific to
   the XLIFF 1.2 specification. I understand the 2.0 spec is still
   in a state of flux. Apologies for my poor audio on the
   question.

   <fsasaki> ACTION: shaun to put data category table into
   non-normative appendix in the spec [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-286 - Put data category table into
   non-normative appendix in the spec [on Shaun McCance - due
   2012-11-19].

   Shaun: For some of the categories there are many different
   properties. Do any of the categories have complex defaults, or
   can we do it just on a data category case-by-case basis?

   Felix: I think data categories are fine as the basis.

Test suite format

   Felix: Who can summarize the discussions?

   Leroy: If you look at LocNote, the discussion is whether we
   have LocNote and LocNotePointer or just locNote.

   <fsasaki> various versions are summarized here
   [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt-tests/2012Nov/0019.html

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Nov/0019.html

   <fsasaki> (versions = with or without "pointer")

   Shaun: If you want to know whether the test output identifies a
   pointer, the suite doesn't test whether you are able to find
   the relative expression from the pointer. That's another test
   of capability.
   ... But I'm not sure what the output from the test would be, a
   path or the value.

   Yves: For 1.0, we put the string value.

   Felix: I was first for having pointers, but am fine with
   removing them.

   Leroy: Second question. Should we remove its-* from local html
   output and have it aligned with the global output for html?

   Yves: That's probably better since you don't know where
   information is coming from.

   Leroy: Do I keep its- or get rid of it?
   ... So I'll standardize to the XML output.

   <DomJones1> arle: do you want me to scribe?

   <pnietoca> I believe that the agreement al Lyon was we use
   neither its- nor its: am I correct?

mtconfidence

   <fsasaki>
   [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0066.html

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0066.html

   Felix: Dave sent a draft. See the link.

   Felix: Related to the tool information topic. This looks
   stable.

   <fsasaki>
   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0066.html

     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0066.html

   <fsasaki> ACTION: arle to edit mtconfidence [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-287 - Edit mtconfidence [on Arle
   Lommel - due 2012-11-19].

   <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check xpath epxressions in
   mtconfidence draft, after arle's edits [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-288 - Check xpath epxressions in
   mtconfidence draft, after arle's edits [on Felix Sasaki - due
   2012-11-19].

   <fsasaki> close issue-41

   <trackbot> ISSUE-41 mtConfidence closed

Too many pointers / global rules

   <fsasaki>
   [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0069.html

     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0069.html

   Felix: Discussed a while ago, but propose to close this issue
   for now. May come back on a category-specific basis.
   ... Hope we could have actions for data category implementers
   to look at specific categories to demonstrate their use.
   ... I would like to separate these issues. But over Christmas
   we may get more issues.

   Dave: For MT Confidence score, that is the only one that I
   think you need a global rule so you can give confidence to
   attribute text. People might want to look at that one.
   ... If you want to include pointers to support things, XLIFF
   examples would be very good/useful.
   ... I'll post these suggestions on the mailing list.

   Felix: Let's move forward to having more data category-specific
   issues. Can we close the general issue?

   Dave: Data categories with pointers need to be written up so
   that we don't mix up pointers and normal global rules.
   ... Is that still an objective?

   Felix: It is still in the draft as a comment. So we will get to
   it.

   <fsasaki> close issue-51

   <trackbot> ISSUE-51 There are too many pointer attributes and
   global rules in general closed

   <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to make action items for data category
   owners about global rules [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-289 - Make action items for data
   category owners about global rules [on Felix Sasaki - due
   2012-11-19].

Remove "HTML5 inline" markup for standoff markup

   <fsasaki>
   [36]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
   ts20/its20.html#lqissue-local

     [36] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-local

   <fsasaki> "Example 85: Annotating an issue in XML with local
   standoff markup and a global rule"

   <fsasaki> Example 86: Annotating an issue in HTML with local
   standoff markup

   <fsasaki> <script type=application/xml id=its-standoff-1>

   Felix: We want to use the XML content in the script instead of
   its- attributes.
   ... The standup markup would no longer be available as its-
   attributes.

   <fsasaki> arle: seems reasonable

   Phil: I've checked and I think this was OK.

   <dF> Reviewed the mtConfidence wording as we speak, looks good
   to me.. also the toolRef wording

   <fsasaki> "id=its-standoff-1" - change to "lq1"

Rename "translation provenance"

   Arle: Does that mean that each markup will be its own script?

   Yves: Yes.

   <fsasaki>
   [37]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
   ts20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance

     [37] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#translation-agent-provenance

   Felix: Provenance is widely relevance. Can we switch this to
   agentProvenanceProvenance?

   <leroy_> my second question for the record was to remove its-*
   from local html output and have it aligned with the global
   output for html. It was decided to remove its-* and align the
   output.

   <fsasaki> "translationProvenanceRecordsRef" >
   "ProvenanceRecordsRef"

   <fsasaki> "transPerson"> "Person"

   <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to update spec with regards to
   proveance, using daveL's input [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-290 - Update spec with regards to
   proveance, using daveL's input [on Felix Sasaki - due
   2012-11-19].

Tool information

   <fsasaki>
   [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0064.html

     [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0064.html

   <fsasaki>
   [40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0078.html

     [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0078.html

   Felix: That's the latest thread/draft

   Dave: This is ongoing. The draft is to gain clarity. In Lyon we
   thought to use an IRI.
   ... Felix, you asked what we gain from it. It is difficult to
   agree on what the content of the toolsRef would be. We could
   encode things in the IRI, but it would be difficult. If we
   don't say what the IRI points to.
   ... I don't think we have consensus yet, but the content I made
   is a basis for discussion.

   Felix: Since we've not had time to consider this, let's leave
   it for the next call. Then next week we can add to the spec.

   Dave: Should it be able to refer to non-ITS data categories?

   Yves: Let's leave undefined things out of the spec.

issues sanitiy check

   <fsasaki>
   [41]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
   ssues/open

     [41] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/open

   Felix: XLIFF doesn't stop us from moving forward.
   ... The editorial notes need to be addressed.
   ... If we move to last call in December, we have to be fine
   with the content with no open issues. There are still many
   explanatory sections that are not up to date. Esp. 1 and 2.
   ... We need to explain that non-normative sections will be
   worked on during the last call.
   ... For those who are new to the group, please make comments
   about normative features. Because there is a lot of mail
   traffic, look at the draft and see what needs more work in the
   normative sections.
   ... Please remember the upcoming calls.

   <fsasaki>
   [42]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Mai
   n_Page#Upcoming

     [42] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page#Upcoming

   <fsasaki>
   [43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
   lt/2012Nov/0083.html

     [43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0083.html

   Editing call is November 14, 20, 27, 28.

   Felix: I can't make an editing call today.

   Arle: I can't make it today either.

   Felix: Thanks to you all.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: arle to edit mtconfidence [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to check xpath epxressions in mtconfidence
   draft, after arle's edits [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to make action items for data category
   owners about global rules [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to update spec with regards to proveance,
   using daveL's input [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to update the wiki with 2013 planning
   [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: shaun to put data category table into
   non-normative appendix in the spec [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/12-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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    $Date: 2012/11/12 20:31:12 $

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-- 
Felix Sasaki
DFKI / W3C Fellow
Received on Monday, 12 November 2012 20:39:40 UTC

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