W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org > February 2013

Re: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a. [ACTION-434]

From: Jörg Schütz <joerg@bioloom.de>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:18:25 +0100
Message-ID: <512DEB81.4020506@bioloom.de>
To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
Hi David,

I already gave my OK but here it is again.

Cheers -- Jörg

On Feb 27, 2013 at 12:10 (UTC+1), Dr. David Filip wrote:
> Hi Christian, all,
>
> we heard from Jan and Pablo that the text proposed by Christian to
> resolve the Issue-75 works for them.
> @Yves, @Jörg, I guess we need mainly the two of you to OK this to be
> able close this one.
>
> Rgds
> dF
>
> Dr. David Filip
> =======================
> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
> University of Limerick, Ireland
> telephone: +353-6120-2781
> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Lieske, Christian
> <christian.lieske@sap.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I had an action item to re-write the note related to "domainMapping" in "multi-engine" scenarios. Here is comes ...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Christian
>> ==
>> Although the focus of ITS 2.0, and some of the usage scenarios addressed in ITS 2.0 showcases (see http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase) is on “single engine” environments, ITS 2.0 - for example in the context of the "domain" data category - can accommodate "workflow/multi engine" scenarios.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> - A scenario involves Machine Translation (MT) engines A and B. The domain labels used by engine A follow the naming scheme A_123, the one for engine B follow the naming scheme B_456.
>> - A "domainMapping" like the following is in place: domainMapping="'sports law' Legal, 'property law' Legal"
>> - Engine A maps 'Legal' to A_4711, Engine B maps 'Legal' to B_42.
>>
>> Thus, ITS does not encode a process or workflow (like "Use MT engine A with domain A_4711, and use MT engine B with domain A_42"). Rather, it encodes information that can be used in workflows.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jörg Schütz [mailto:joerg@bioloom.de]
>> Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2013 09:37
>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a. incl. 2.b. and 1.
>>
>> Hi Felix and all,
>>
>> Here is my suggestion for a note (native speakers please correct):
>>
>> Bear in mind that ITS is first and foremost a powerful markup technology
>> to add metadata to (Web) content. In this sense, it is not a (direct)
>> means to support, or even drive process or workflow engines, although
>> some of the data categories like provenance, domain, domain mapping,
>> etc. may induce such a view. Since this ITS metadata enhances the
>> content in a structured way and in multiple forms, ITS consuming agents
>> can employ that data to effectively implement their usage or deployment
>> scenarios within single engine or single process environments as well as
>> within multi-engine environments such as "try MT engine A, then MT
>> engine B, ..." (see also ITS 2.0 showcases at
>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase).
>> It is, however, not possible to assign, say, a specific domain mapping
>> incarnation to a certain (process or workflow) instance because such an
>> assignment concerns the process side, and this is beyond the current ITS
>> metadata scope.
>>
>> With this, we now have apparently reached consensus on 2.a., 2.b.
>> (already reviewed by Christian), and 1. (shepherd's view...)
>>
>> [@Yves: 1. is independent of the domain mapping specs.]
>>
>> Cheers -- Jörg
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2013, at 18:15 (CET), Felix Sasaki wrote:
>>> Hi Jan, all,
>>>
>>> thanks a lot for the initial note, Christian, and for comments in this
>>> thread. It seems that Yves made clear that
>>>
>>> “try MT engine A, then MT engine B”
>>>
>>> may indeed work with the ITS domain mechanism - but there is a lot of
>>> white spaces including
>>>
>>> “try MT engine A with domain ‘financials’, then try MT engine B with
>>> domain ‘healthcare’”
>>> and layering of many other processing types. So maybe a final note could
>>> concentrate on these white spaces? Anybody volunteering to re-write the
>>> note?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Felix
>>>
>>> Am 29.01.13 17:15, schrieb Jan Nelson:
>>>> I find it a reasonable practice to define what is not in scope as a
>>>> part of any specification, though agree that clear statements of in
>>>> scope features are crucial.
>>>>
>>>> I am curious about how a multi-engine selection/validation process
>>>> works.  Christian, you mentioned both TM services as well as MT
>>>> engines.  I can see value to be able to call from a set of services
>>>> depending on domain with fallback based on result quality scores.  And
>>>> you state that ITS 2.0 might be a single service scoped spec.
>>>>
>>>> Yves, you believe that there is support for more than one MT engine as
>>>> currently spec'd.  My interest in the white spaces between the two
>>>> comments are when layering n-services of differing processing types,
>>>> e.g., fuzzy matching TM services versus statistical MT engine results
>>>> and how that plays out.  It seems very ambitious to me to provide
>>>> scope for this, and yet having a system that is capable of providing
>>>> the kinds of metadata needed to enable it would be a pretty powerful
>>>> in terms of the potential to provide hi-fi results.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe my comments are far out of scope, but the thread here caught my
>>>> attention.  If this the case, I am happy to discuss it more offline,
>>>> perhaps in Rome over a coffee.
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:55 AM
>>>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Christian, all,
>>>>
>>>> I’m always a bit uncomfortable with stating what a mechanism is NOT
>>>> doing in a specification. It seems we should be able to define what it
>>>> does do and that should be sufficient.
>>>>
>>>> I would also argue that the scenario “try MT engine A, then MT engine
>>>> B” can work perfectly well with what we have today. The specification
>>>> provides domainMapping for some basic mappings that allow for example
>>>> to point multiple keywords to a more common unique 'domain' label.
>>>>
>>>> For example you have a mapping as this: domainMapping="'sports law'
>>>> Legal, 'property law' Legal"
>>>> and two MT engines: they each have a user-defined table that provide
>>>> additional re-direction (they are even possibly pair specific: one
>>>> maps 'Legal' to 'LEGAL_EN_PT' and the other maps 'Legal' to
>>>> '5242e0762354527_legal'.
>>>>
>>>> Using domainMapping for more than simple grouping is bound to have
>>>> quick limitations:
>>>>
>>>> a) what if you add a third MT engine? You have to edit every single
>>>> rules document to add the new mapping?
>>>>
>>>> b) how do you map to engine that are defined per pair?
>>>>
>>>> IMO the mapping to the values used to slect the MT engine belongs to
>>>> the process side, not the input.
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> -yves
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Lieske, Christian [mailto:christian.lieske@sap.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:11 AM
>>>> To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>>>> Subject: [ISSUE-75] - Domain - 2.a.
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> One of my comments related to “domain” (see
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0022.html)
>>>> was the following:
>>>>
>>>> 2.a. Domain "systems" may not be harmonized across a processing chain.
>>>> A Translation Memory component may for example work with different
>>>> domains than a Machine Translation system that is part of the same
>>>> processing chain. Since ITS 2.0 "domain" currently does not allow to
>>>> capture the information "This is for component X" these scenarios
>>>> cannot be addressed.
>>>>
>>>> During the face-to-face in Prague, we achieved the following status
>>>> (see http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item09): a note
>>>> should explain that “domain” (and possibly other data categories) do
>>>> not accommodate what could be called multi-engine scenario.
>>>>
>>>> Here is my suggestion for a note …
>>>>
>>>> The focus of ITS 2.0, and some of the usage scenarios addressed in ITS
>>>> 2.0 showcases (see
>>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary#ITS_2.0_Metadata:_Work-In-Context_Showcase)
>>>> is on “single engine” environments. Example: the Machine Translation
>>>> (MT) usage scenarios do not work along the lines of process chains
>>>> such as “try MT engine A, then MT engine B”. Accordingly, ITS 2.0 has
>>>> few provisions to support this kind of “multi-engine” environments
>>>> which for example require domain-related information such as “try MT
>>>> engine A with domain ‘financials’, then try MT engine B with domain
>>>> ‘healthcare’”.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Christian
Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2013 11:18:37 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Wednesday, 27 February 2013 11:18:37 GMT