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Re: [ISSUE-84]: ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t Indian [Indic] languages, was: Re: ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t Indian languages plus new comments on www-international list

From: Dave Lewis <dave.lewis@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 01:46:49 +0000
Message-ID: <51218809.7070404@cs.tcd.ie>
To: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
CC: Somnath Chandra <schandra@deity.gov.in>, slata <slata@mit.gov.in>, mjain@deity.gov.in
Hi Somnath,
I just wanted to check if you were satisfied specifically with our 
response to reject your comment on support for transliteration in 
ITS2.0, and the explanations from myself and Shaun McChance.

As we have not heard back from you specifically on this issue, we will 
take it you are satisfied if we do not hear to the contrary by the 20th 
February.

Also, thank you for your positive response with respect to advancing 
best practice on the realtionship  of ITS with NIF with respect to your 
other comments.

kind regards,
Dave Lewis


On 28/01/2013 19:55, Shaun McCance wrote:
> Hi Somnath,
>
> Dave's summary below is basically correct. I had originally suggested
> a data category to identify transliteration-only content. There was
> discussion about a more general mechanism of identifying how text was
> expected to be translated, as Dave discussed.
>
> I wasn't exactly interested in telling translators something had to
> be transliterated (though I think that's useful). My motivation was
> to automatically drop strings from the workload in languages where
> transliteration from English isn't necessary. The mechanism is the
> same, though.
>
> There was very little interest, even among the translators I work
> with, and since I didn't have a working prototype extension to base
> the data category on, I didn't push any further for it.
>
> If people are indeed interested in such a data category, I'm open
> to working on it as a community-developed ITS extension, or in a
> possible future version of ITS proper. But since this is something
> that can be addressed separately, I do not believe we should work
> on it as part of ITS 2.0 at this late stage.
>
> --
> Shaun
>
> On Tue, 2013-01-22 at 23:03 +0000, Dave Lewis wrote:
>> Hi Somnath,
>> I'd like to respond in more detail about your comment on the need for
>> some transliteration support in relation to the use of the translate
>> data category for Indic languages.
>>
>> Such a requirement was in fact identified by the WG at the
>> requirements gathering stage, see the requirement document:
>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Requirements#autoLanguageProcessingRule
>>
>> This proposal took the form of a separate data category, specifically
>> to indicate that the selected content should be transliterated.
>> However, there was not at the time a strong enough drive from anyone
>> to implement such a data category, so it was not moved forward into
>> the specification.
>>
>> As I recall, the discussion was that while it was important to
>> indicate _whether_ text needed to be translated or not, there was not
>> a strong use case for indicating _how_ it should be translated (e.g.
>> human translation, machine translation, transliteration,
>> pseudotransaltion). The 'how' was typically left to the descretion of
>> the translation service provider, within the parameters of translation
>> project (e.g. timing, quality, cost etc). Such parameters were
>> generally considered outside the scope of ITS since they relate to
>> service level and contractual agreements that would be too
>> competitively sensitive to yield good interoperability use cases.
>>
>> Note that such a separate transliteration data category was the a
>> preferred solution as opposed to adding an attribute to the translate
>> data category. This is because the latter would impact negatively both
>> on the backward compatibiltiy of this data category with its use in
>> ITS1.0 as well as on the direct mapping of this data category to the
>> translate attribute now included in the HTML5 specification - both of
>> which are seen as important to the easy uptake of ITS2.0.
>>
>> It is probably therefore quite late in the process to reconsider
>> reintroducing a transliteration data category. However, to understand
>> and record your requirements more completely, is there a specific use
>> case where a translator would need to be instructed on whether to
>> translate or transliterate some text, or would translators typically
>> be the ones to make this decision?
>>
>> Please let us know if you find this response satisfactory. I'd
>> encourage anyone else in the WG with in interest in this issue to add
>> their input to resolvign this issue (Yves, Shaun, I think you were
>> involved in the original discussions).
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Dave Lewis
>>
>> On 21/01/2013 15:02, Dave Lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> To speed the resolution of the different issues in your original
>>> post I'll restricted ISSUE-84 to comments about the translate data
>>> category and raised two new issues:
>>> ISSUE-108: locNote ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t Indian [Indic]
>>> languages
>>> ISSUE-109: disambiguation ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t Indian [Indic]
>>> languages
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 18/01/2013 12:46, Dr. David Filip wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all, this comment is now associated with Issue-84
>>>> Rgds
>>>> dF
>>>>
>>>> Dr. David Filip
>>>> =======================
>>>> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
>>>> University of Limerick, Ireland
>>>> telephone: +353-6120-2781
>>>> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
>>>> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
>>>> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>          Forwarded on behalf of Somnath Chandra (by permission),
>>>>          with CC to Somnath and Svaran Lata.The comments are not
>>>>          yet in tracker. See also new comments (also not in tracker
>>>>          yet) on the www-international list at
>>>>          http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0065.html
>>>>          
>>>>          If you have input for replying to the comments, please
>>>>          provide it on our comments list (but feel free to put
>>>>          others in CC to speed up the process).
>>>>          
>>>>          Best,
>>>>          
>>>>          Felix
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>          -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>>>                              Betreff:
>>>>          Fwd: ITS 2.0 requirements
>>>>          w.r.t Indian languages
>>>>                                Datum:
>>>>          Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:46:52
>>>>          +0530
>>>>                                  Von:
>>>>          Somnath Chandra
>>>>          <schandra@deity.gov.in>
>>>>                                   An:
>>>>          Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
>>>>                           Kopie (CC):
>>>>          slata <slata@mit.gov.in>
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>          Dear Dr. Felix Sasaki,
>>>>           
>>>>          W3C India has compiled the Indic Languages requirements
>>>>          for ITS 2.0. Kindly find enclosed the draft
>>>>          document developed for the purpose.
>>>>           
>>>>          Submitted for kind perusal. Please feel free to contact me
>>>>          for any further clarifications / discussions.
>>>>           
>>>>          With best regards,
>>>>           
>>>>          Somnath , W3C India
>>>>           
>>>>          Dr. Somnath Chandra
>>>>          Joint Director and Dy. Country Manager , W3C India
>>>>          Dept. of Electronics & Information Technology
>>>>          Ministry of Communications & Information Technology
>>>>          Govt. of India
>>>>          Tel:+91-11-24364744,24301811
>>>>          Fax: +91-11-24363099
>>>>          e-mail :schandra@mit.gov.in
>>>>           
>>>>          -------- Original Message --------
>>>>          From: Prashant Verma <vermaprashant1@gmail.com>
>>>>          Date: Jan 10, 2013 2:20:32 PM
>>>>          Subject: ITS 2.0 requirements w.r.t Indian languages
>>>>          To: schandra@mit.gov.in
>>>>           
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>          --
>>>>          
>>>>          Prashant Verma I  Sr. Software Engineer
>>>>          W3C India
>>>>          New Delhi
>>>>          Cell : +91-8800521042
>>>>          Website : http://www.w3cindia.in
>>>>          
>>>>           
>>>>           
>>>>          --
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>          
>>>>
>>
>
>
Received on Monday, 18 February 2013 01:47:27 GMT

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