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MATF Minutes 25 January 2018

From: Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:13:48 -0500
To: "public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org" <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <5A6A104C.8030908@redstartsystems.com>
*MATF Minutes 25 January, 2018 link: 

  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

    25 Jan 2018


    Kathy, shadi, JakeAbma, Chriscm, kim, marcjohlic

    Kathy Wahlbin


  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2018/01/25-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. candidate recommendation
     2. target size understanding
  * Summary of Action Items
  * Summary of Resolutions


<Kathy> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF

<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Updated_CR_pub/results

<Kathy> http://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/Jan_2018_CR/guidelines/index.html 

      candidate recommendation

Kathy: target size is it AAA – just 44 x 44 and exception from AA
... if we do go to recommendation that's one of the understanding 
documents that will have to be changed
... will need to be clearly explained – what if target is an block of 
text. We have had a lot of back-and-forth on that. For example menu item

<Kathy> Inline The target is in a sentence or block of text;

      target size understanding

Kathy: need to clarify what we need by sentence or block of text
... block of text is a definition already – sentence?
... block of text is a definition and that's why it was being used

<Kathy> locks of text more than one sentence of text

Kathy: block of text definition – more than one sentence of text

<shadi> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#blockstextdef

Kathy: need definition for sentence
... targets within a sentence or block of text which is defined as more 
than one sentence – so if we have one or more sentences then it is excluded
... do you feel that in the understanding document we should define and 
give an example of what a sentence is

Shadi: reason for defining sentence

Kathy: block of text is defined but in the understanding document should 
we be declaring what exception is excepting
... if I were reading this without a lot of background – if I have a 
form control and a line of text below that that has some instructions – 
is that then excluded from this, is menus excluded from this . The 
understanding document probably needs to say something around this

Kim: what matters for this instance – number of words or technical 
sentence. Are we trying to exclude menu items?

Jake: block of text is more than one sentence. I brought up that that 
would be strange because if you have three or more paragraphs and one of 
the paragraphs contains only one sentence it's strange to exclude for 
that one sentence. Now we say one sentence is excepted. I'm not sure 
that that's what we wanted to do. The whole block of text should have 
been deleted

Kathy: the conversation around block of text was a series of menu links 
as well
... originally exclusion for three or more menu items those are excluded 
– all rolled back up into this and the user agent control one – both 
this and user agent control exceptions are going to be difficult unless 
we provide examples and talk about in the understanding document

<JakeAbma> Sentence: a set of words that is complete in itself, 
typically containing a subject and predicate, conveying a statement, 
question, exclamation, or command, and consisting of a main clause and 
sometimes one or more subordinate clauses.

Jake: there are definitions for sentences
... it's always a set of words that's complete in itself
... block of text mmust also contain two or more sentences isn't logical

Shadi: I would not interpret a menu list to be a sentence – but we do 
want to have menus address that are small

<chriscm> Hi everybody, sorry I'm late :)

Shadi: also a table of contents – does that list of hyperlinks now need 
to have different spacing than the rest of the document?
... in line or navigation menu – that's where we need to separate out

Kathy: even text within table cells
... do they fall into that exception or do they not?

Shadi: the way I was reading it table with individual cells would not be 
in line text

Kathy: what about text with a link for privacy and a link for terms of 
use is that in line?

Shadi: to me, yes
... usually in the reading flow, and then you have text and you have a 
check box

Kathy: form control, tooltip as part of – I have a field set, I have a 
tooltip with that, several choices could be each a sentence and then 
another tooltip after that and then I could have in-line things like 
privacy – are all those excluded because they could be considered a 

Jake: you can place that sentence within a container, whatever it is 
shouldn't matter. You can place a sentence in a table and it's still a 
sentence. You can also place a sentence and in alt text message. It 
still a sentence. I don't think we should mix elements with definition 
of a sentence

Kathy: maybe we should define what it is rather than what it isn't

Shadi: it's that it is in a sentence.
... rather than it is a sentence
... so to me this reads that it's excluded – that may not be what we 
want but that's the way it reads to me

<shadi> [[non-controls that appear within the flow of the surrounding text]]

Kim: why a sentence – why not a number of words?

Jake: resizing changes this

Kathy: if we take definition of sentence complete in itself, lots of 
exclusions – what is it that we are left with

Chris: change sentence to phrase – would that be too broad

Kathy: can't change it – we are just clarifying this in the 
understanding – need to clarify what this means what this actually 
applies to. What I'm worried about is if I'm confused about this and 
I've been working on this for the past years I don't know how others 
will interpret this

Shadi: what we wanted to say with this was non controls that appear 
within the flow of surrounding text – is that what we are talking about 

Chris: we're talking about links – if we just say that the purpose 
becomes clear I think.

Kathy: but it's not links – it's no longer just in-line links, it's any 
type of control, a button, anything. This was changed by the working 
group to be much broader than in-line links

Chris: if you describe it in those simpler terms the purpose becomes 
clear and in those other controls that fit within those kind of border 
cases that the working group wanted to capture in that – those become if 
it looks like a link, acts like a link etc.
... I think that's with the wording change was about, if it acts like a 
link. When you describe it in terms of a hyperlink and say these other 
things are captured within this – the purpose and in conjunction with 
the more obscure text becomes obvious
... we need more data points

<shadi> [[targets that appear within the flow of the surrounding text, 
such as links within a paragraph]]

Kathy: I agree that we can put in examples of the text within links. We 
also have to talk about all of those other cases, otherwise when someone 
goes to evaluate this will have everyone interpreting it differently, 
which is what we want to avoid
... Shadi what would you consider to be the text – a group of form 
fields a group label, after it a tooltip and that little icon – is that 
excluded or is that included in the requirements for 44 by 44

Shadi: wwould be excluded – I don't like that but would be excluded like 
... since they are separate – but within a label if you have this 
tooltip that would be in line

Kathy: so label is considered a sentence?

Shadi: no it doesn't have to be considered a sentence– if a label is in 
a sentence, part of a sentence
... checkbox within a sentence is in line. I don't think a label is a 
sentence but it doesn't have to be a sentence could be excluded – only 
things that are inside – in the flow of a sentence, they are excluded 
because they are in line in my reading
... a label, input field, radio button, where would that be in line or 
where would that be excluded

Kathy: checkbox and label for a checkbox – bank website, long label that 
includes a sentence
... is that excluded?

Kim: sentence is a difficult definition – you can have a two word 
sentence or a 50 word non-sentence

<shadi> [[targets that appear within the flow of the surrounding text, 
such as links within a paragraph]]

Kathy: I looked at a lot of webpages and form controls looking at what 
this would apply to

<Kathy> We accept: Visaฎ, Mastercardฎ, or Discoverฎ (transactions up to 
$250); a transfer from another checking account you own (up to $1,000); 
or, a transfer from one of your other DCU accounts if you're already a 

Shadi: beginning of sentences but broken up by lists, radio buttons, 
checkboxes even if the sentence continues after that you don't have the 
flow of the text

Kathy: but you do – example above

<Kathy> Easy ways to grow and use your money. Earn higher dividend rates 
in exchange for larger minimum balances. Money Market Account Insured 
account pays higher dividends, tiered by daily balance, than our Savings 
Account on balances of $1,000 or more. Read reviews. Member Described 
Account A free savings account you can name as you save for a special 
purpose. Read reviews. Ltd Savings Account Earn higher competitive 
dividends when balance is over $25,000 [CUT]

Shadi: what you just pasted in there that would be a block of text. The 
other one when you put in the list items you are structuring around the 

Kathy: one just pasted in is sentences that are around checkboxes

Shadi: if it's really formatted the way it is in IRC – buttons are 
within this paragraph as it is then that's in line. If they restructure 
that and start having radio buttons proceed or checkboxes, not having 
the flow of the text but restructuring to meet the targets, the targets 
are not in line but have their own structure

Kathy: so in this case the checkboxes are next to money market, member 
describe account… Checkbox, two sentences in another checkbox, then a label

Shadi: this is why I've been uncomfortable describing a sentence 
grammatically – the fact that this is a full sentence or a set of 
sentences – what I'm trying to get at is visual representation or how 
it's represented by screenwriter readers – will the list item be 
communicated visually and distinct that that's an option,, and then the 
next option? This to me is not in line anymore because the options for 
the targets now have their own flow or their o[CUT]

Kathy: so you would exclud it?

Shadi: no I would not because they're really not in line anymore
... if it's text just like it is in IRC and it really is in line, the 
exception would kick in, but if they have their own structure presented 
as a separate option each then they are not in line anymore

Kathy: I think it might be easier to see some examples – I'll pull 
together some examples that are on the Internet and we will say whether 
these are exempt or not

Marc: I'm thinking along the same lines as Shadi
... way back at the beginning someone put together a page demonstrating 
44 by 44

Kathy: that was Patrick
... people didn't like the example – focus tracker

Marc: need to be able to see this on a page. Seems like they were 
picturing icons not words or hyperlinks

<Kathy> http://codepen.io/patrickhlauke/pen/aBNREe

Kathy: this example might've been 48, but it's close
... it doesn't go around the whole area, just the link itself

This example to fly because the low-vision task force didn't like it

Kathy: wireframes – icons automatically default to 48
... it might've almost been better to say text links are excluded
... for the next meeting I will put together examples, we'll say should 
it be excluded and reasons




sc list

3.2.6 not covered

<chriscm> I have to go! I can follow one, if someone will email me with 
the link to the PR!

<chriscm> Yep! Sorry, on mute.

<chriscm> Audio isn't working :(

Kathy: orientation – Marc

<chriscm> Yes! Look at IRC!

label in name – Kim

<chriscm> Sorry :)

<chriscm> Just one this week pls.

<chriscm> I'm more comfortable with Status Changes.

<chriscm> Perfect!

<chriscm> I'm out.

TOPIC assignments

<chriscm> https://code.visualstudio.com/

<marcjohlic> https://codepen.io/patrickhlauke/pen/aBNREe

Marc: what makes the padding in CSS?

Chris: 18 pixels, depends on what your measurement is. It is a standard 
value. There's a margin going on here. All of the green box that you are 
saying is coming from the 1 EM of padding in the margin

Kathy: when you start shrinking the window you can have those targets 
overlap at some point
... 9 mm x 9 mm is really what were looking at physical size
... we'll go over people's changes to the understanding next week

    Summary of Action Items

    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
version 1.152 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
$Date: 2018/01/25 17:09:49 $


Kimberly Patch
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
Received on Thursday, 25 January 2018 17:14:12 UTC

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