Re: Issue of the new Success Criterion 2.5.3 vs. WCAG 3.2.1

We may be able to leverage current WCAG exception language such as 2.2.1
bullet 5

"except when the time limit is essential
<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#essentialdef> and extending it would
invalidate the activity"

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
wrote:

> In my opinion 2.5.3 is different from 3.2.1.    The intention of 2.5.3 is
> to assist users that do not have AT active but may touch the wrong element
> and then slide their finger to the correct element.
>
> On iOS Safari I tested and touchstart is fired followed by touchend and
> then mousemove for controls like buttons and links.
>
> Jon
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 26, 2016, at 9:07 AM, Chris McMeeking <chris.mcmeeking@deque.com>
> wrote:
>
> Also, an important distinction between 3.2.1 and 2.5.3, is that 3.2.1 uses
> the phrase "onFocus".  This means something very specific in web
> development, that is not necessarily implied the scenario 2.5.3 is
> addressing.  The proposed 2.5.3 events are not specifically referring to
> onFocus events, but rather hover, touch, and other gestures that only
> really apply to Touch ATs.  So 2.5.3 can be viewed as covering a superset
> of the failures that 3.2.1 covers.  I would propose that we relate the two,
> and keep 2.5.3 separate, focusing only on the issues not covered in 3.2.1.
> Which would be those issues that are either Touch AT specific or that do
> not refer direction to the onFocus event.
>
> Also @Detlev:  In response to your 3-B comment.  The issue is not
> canceling a double tap.  We are assuming that if a user initiates a double
> tap, that they wish to activate the control.  Let me outline a prototypical
> failure:
>
> 1. Touch AT is on..
> 2. User uses a touch gesture to have a control announced.
> 3. User lifts off this control and the control is activated.
>
> The proper user interaction should be:
>
> 1. Touch AT is on.
> 2. User uses a touch gesture to have a control announced.
> 3. Users lifts off this control. (Nothing)
> 4. User double taps screen to activate the control.
>
> This is what the proposed 2.5.3 is targeted at now.  I believe expanding
> it to your ideas you commented in your 3-A point are also relevant.  Though
> I don't believe would be covered by the current verbage.  We'd also want an
> additional technique and failure focusing on that scenario for
> clarification.
>
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 1:11 PM, ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> (3)
>>
>> C. For iOS, also has the way many blind users use the double tap and that
>> is to touch and locate with one finger then keeping that finger on the
>> screen, tap with another finger, pointer finger and thumb for example. You
>> locate with your pointer finger and tap with your thumb and release to
>> select. To cancel, you single tap but don’t release your thumb, rather you
>> slide your thumb up/down or either side ways to cancel this single tap.
>>
>>
>>
>> D.. For Android, in similar fashion, locate with one finger then double
>> tap and release with the other. To cancel you double tap and slide your
>> finger on the second tap and not release in the same location. It will
>> start to announce other buttons/items if under that slide to position and
>> not fire the unwanted double tap.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
>> *Sent: *Thursday, February 25, 2016 12:42 PM
>> *To: *public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
>> *Subject: *Issue of the new Success Criterion 2.5.3 vs. WCAG 3.2.1
>>
>>
>>
>> Just following the discussion on today's telco about the benefits and
>> disadvantages of having a new Success Criterion 2.5.3 vs. rolling it into
>> WCAG 3.2.1, I see some differences which might be sufficient to justify the
>> sdeparation (but I am not sure ansd just want to discuss this in more
>> detail):
>>
>>
>>
>> (1) SC 3.2.1 covers operation with or without AT turned on
>>
>>     SC 2.5.3 presumably focuses on use with touch AT turned on
>>
>>     (a completely different input paradigm compared to touch
>>
>>     without AT)
>>
>>
>>
>> (2) 3.2.1: When tabbing through content, things violating 3.2.1
>>
>>     just happen on focus - there is no option to revoke the action
>>
>>     SC 2.5.3 (as I understood it) focuses on enabling users to
>>
>>     revoke an action if they discover that they made a mistake
>>
>>
>>
>> (3) So there are two variants in the way 2.5.3 can apply:
>>
>>     A..  AT is off. Here it would cover being able to move the
>>
>>         finger out of a control to revoke the action.
>>
>>         We know from Patrick that this might not work (sticky
>>
>>         behaviour), but it _can_ work natively (iOS) and also
>>
>>         on web pages (iOS, Safari) - maybe only if you move the
>>
>>         finger far enough outside the control.
>>
>>     B.  AT is on. Here, the typical moment to revoke might be
>>
>>         that you realise in the middle of a double tap that you
>>
>>         actually don't want to activate after all, so you don't
>>
>>         lift your finger in order to prevent the event from being
>>
>>         fired. We would need to validate with AT users whether
>>
>>         they actually do that. iOS cancels the double tap when
>>
>>         you move your finger sideways (which of course can be
>>
>>         anywhere). If you just leave it resting on screen you get
>>
>>         a context menu that includes 'Cancel' (but this may be
>>
>>         3D touch specific)
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure whether this is helpful.
>>
>> Detlev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Detlev Fischer
>>
>> testkreis c/o feld.wald.wiese
>>
>> Thedestr. 2, 22767 Hamburg
>>
>>
>>
>> Mobil +49 (0)157 57 57 57 45
>>
>> Fax +49 (0)40 439 10 68-5
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.testkreis.de
>>
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>>
>>
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