Mobile Accessibility TF Minutes 01 October, 2015

Hi MATF members,

Here's is the link to today's minutes:

http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

And here is the text:

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[17:05] <Kathy> trackbot, start meeting
[17:05] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
[17:05] == RRSAgent [rrsagent@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-irc
[17:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
[17:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
[17:05] == Zakim [zakim@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
[17:05] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
[17:05] <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
[17:05] <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015
[17:05] <Kathy> chair: Kathy Wahlbin
[17:06] <Kathy> agenda?
[17:06] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
[17:06] <Kathy> agenda+ Mobile Techniques
[17:06] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
[17:07] <Kathy> agenda+ Discussion of Touch Proposal
[17:07] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
[17:07] <Kathy> agenda+ Wirting Assignments
[17:07] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
[17:07] <Kathy> agenda+ Next Steps
[17:07] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
[17:07] <Kathy> agenda?
[17:08] * Zakim sees 4 items remaining on the agenda:
[17:08] * Zakim 1. Mobile Techniques [from Kathy]
[17:08] * Zakim 2. Discussion of Touch Proposal [from Kathy]
[17:08] * Zakim 3. Wirting Assignments [from Kathy]
[17:08] * Zakim 4. Next Steps [from Kathy]
[16:55] == jeanne [jeanne@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:00] == David [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
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[17:02] <Kathy> present+ Kathy
[17:03] <agarrison> +agarrison
[17:03] <jeanne> +jeanne
[17:03] <David> +David_MacDonald
[17:03] <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
[17:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
[17:03] <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
[17:03] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald
[17:04] <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
[17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, jeanne
[17:04] <jeanne> zakim, pick a victim
[17:04] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose David_MacDonald
[17:05] == marcjohlic [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:05] <jeanne> present+ jeanne, agarrison, David_MacDonald, Detlev
[17:06] <Detlev> scribe:Detlev
[17:06] <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
[17:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
[17:06] <Detlev> Zakim, take up first item
[17:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', Detlev
[17:06] <Detlev> Zakim, take up next
[17:06] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Mobile Techniques" taken up [from Kathy]
[17:06] * jeanne notes that the +[name] didn't work. Stick with present+ [name]
[17:06] <Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
[17:06] <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
[17:07] <Detlev> Kathy: Mobile-A11y-Extension is a sketch how the extension framework is going to play out
[17:08] <Detlev> Kathy: SOme new mobile techniques, others go under existing techniques
[17:08] <Detlev> Kathy: ..organised by guidelines. What's your thoughts?
[17:09] == jon_avila [~jon_avila@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:09] <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
[17:09] <David> q+
[17:09] == Henny [~Henny@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:09] * Zakim sees David on the speaker queue
[17:09] <Detlev> Jeanne: Doc is in Respect to support automated publishing
[17:10] <agarrison> So, is it like http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-accessibility-mapping/ - just cut up into techniques?
[17:10] <Kathy> q?
[17:10] * Zakim sees David on the speaker queue
[17:10] <Detlev> Jeanne: Changes only made via github pull requests - don't add anything to it directly, especially no J, may cause issues
[17:11] <agarrison> q
[17:11] <agarrison> q+
[17:11] * Zakim sees David, agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:12] <Detlev> David: 2.5.1 structure issue - CSS is not correct yet
[17:12] <Detlev> David: 2.5.1 should not remain in here
[17:12] <Detlev> Kathy: This is agreed stuff but not yet public
[17:13] <Detlev> David: Should WCAG be in here and the new stuff added?
[17:13] <Detlev> Kathy: Should help place new mobile techniques under the relevant success criteria - but it's open to discussion
[17:14] <Detlev> David: Not clear what the proposal is - copying all of WCAG in here?
[17:15] <Detlev> David: People shouldn't perceive this as the updated full WCAG
[17:15] <Detlev> Kathy: How shall we otherwise present techniques
[17:15] <Detlev> David: Maybe it is enough to reference the WCAG guideline /SC numbers to make the difference obvious
[17:16] <jeanne> +1 to short handles of WCAG and adding it to the Status
[17:16] <Detlev> Kathy: Status of the doc should clarify the difference to exisitng WCAG - that it is to be considered in addition to WCAG
[17:16] <Kathy> q?
[17:16] * Zakim sees David, agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:17] <Detlev> Alistair: mobile accessibility mapping is structured in a similar way (see URL above)
[17:18] <Detlev> Kathy: this wasn't structured as extension - some are best practices - we started with touch accessibility and added necessary things
[17:18] <Detlev> Kathy: Not xyet decided what will happen with the note - the extension is where things will go
[17:18] <David> http://davidmacd.com/blog/WCAG-extension-proposed-integration-into-WCAG.html
[17:19] <Detlev> Kathy: WCAG WG is currently working out how the extension should work
[17:20] <Detlev> Kathy: THis is an overview t facilitate a suggestion how the different reqs will fit into the extension (LV, cognitive, mobile)
[17:20] <Detlev> Kathy: Intended as outline of normative extension
[17:21] <Detlev> Kathy: Extension is supposed to just add to, not subtract from WCAG 2.0
[17:22] <Detlev> Alistair: Maybe the text from WCAG should be brought over so people can see what gets extended where
[17:22] <Detlev> AListair: Will provide more context - may be changed later
[17:23] <Detlev> David: This has no educational purpose ATM - no changes to normative WCAG 2.0 expected , no crossing out
[17:24] <Detlev> Jeanne: Stil early days in figuing out what the extension will mean - all thoughts are OK now, Mobile a11y TF is spearheading the process, so it is valuable to identify issues (like having to make changes to normative WCAG 2.0)
[17:26] <Detlev> Kathy: End user aspect, like people creating responsive sites - would it make sense to have new mobile SC with different twechniques - the actual end user will know what is required for accessible development
[17:26] <Detlev> Kathy: For them it will be easier to have all relevant info in one place rather than resort to different places
[17:27] <David> q+
[17:27] * Zakim sees David, agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:27] <Detlev> Kathy: We have to consider end user view and usability of this documentation
[17:27] <Kathy> q?
[17:27] * Zakim sees David, agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:27] <agarrison> q-
[17:27] * Zakim sees David on the speaker queue
[17:28] <Detlev> David: We need a view (quickref) to synthesize stuff, incl. mobile
[17:28] * jeanne has already asked for mobile view of the Quickref.
[17:28] <agarrison> q+
[17:28] * Zakim sees David, agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:28] * jeanne also proposes color changes for existing WCAG and our new text.
[17:28] <Detlev> David: Still early days - it may be more difficult to manage to include all, it's a working doc for us
[17:29] <Detlev> David: Should be easy to aggregate for developers later
[17:29] <Detlev> Kathy: Withing the Quickref there canbe new guidelines and SC
[17:30] <Detlev> Kathy: UAAG and WCAG chairs need input on how we can bring together the different user needs and requirements
[17:31] <Detlev> Alistair: Reading in different documents looks like a problem - easier to have one synthesized doc
[17:31] <Detlev> Alistair: Looks different on a mobile browser
[17:32] * jeanne is SO glad Alistair has returned!
[17:32] <Detlev> Kathy: Not sure how to bring in hybrid apps using web views
[17:32] <Detlev> Kathy: muich of it is platform specific (iOS / ANdroid etc)
[17:32] * jeanne hopes that Alistair will start writing Techniques for hybrid
[17:33] <jeanne> q+
[17:33] * Zakim sees David, agarrison, jeanne on the speaker queue
[17:33] <Detlev> Kathy: Current focus is straight web sites
[17:33] <jeanne> ack Dav
[17:33] * Zakim sees agarrison, jeanne on the speaker queue
[17:33] <jeanne> ack ag
[17:33] * Zakim sees jeanne on the speaker queue
[17:33] <Detlev> Alistair: THe extensio bnmodel may also apply to techniques
[17:34] == Alan_smith [~Alan_smith@public.cloak] has joined #mobile-a11y
[17:34] <Alan_smith> + Alan
[17:34] <Detlev> Jeanne: Whne req for updated Quickref were developed the need for a filter for 'mobile' was included
[17:35] <Detlev> Jeann: we can be specific to the area the techniques apply to
[17:35] <Detlev> David: We need mor techniques - including for hybrid
[17:36] <Detlev> Jeanne: One topic is text-resizing which could be modified for different mobile paltforms
[17:37] <Detlev> Kathy: will send out info on that
[17:37] <agarrison> q-
[17:37] * Zakim sees jeanne on the speaker queue
[17:37] <jeanne> ack jea
[17:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:38] <jeanne> s/Jeanne: One topic is/Kathy: One topic is
[17:38] <Detlev> Kathy: We should go back to see what is mobile specific, like 1.3.3 Sensory characteristics - but telling people where somethign is on the screen coan be really helpful, such things should be taken into account
[17:38] <Detlev> Kathy: A technique just being one way to meet the criteria
[17:39] <Detlev> Kathy: Lets put techniques out to get feedback on what will prove helpful for the new tocuh interaction paradigm
[17:39] <David> q+
[17:39] * Zakim sees David on the speaker queue
[17:41] <Detlev> Alistair: 3D touch brings in new aspects, also time touch on Android
[17:41] <Detlev> Alan: Things like duration can be very helpful for some users
[17:43] <Detlev> David: We need to take into account the WCAG philosophy - there is a tension between actual use cases and the standard. There are sometimes new tech solutions which beg the question what should be required
[17:43] <Kathy> q?
[17:43] * Zakim sees David on the speaker queue
[17:43] <David> q-
[17:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:43] <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29
[17:43] <Detlev> Kathy: This doc is a snapshot of current agreements - we can countinue using Wiki
[17:44] <Detlev> Zakim, take up next
[17:44] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Discussion of Touch Proposal" taken up [from Kathy]
[17:44] <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
[17:44] <Detlev> Kathy: Davids wording solution - from equiring touch access to requiring that all touch access also works with AT turned on
[17:45] <Detlev> David: Charter tells us we are authorized to develop extensions
[17:45] <Detlev> David: There may be overlap between requirements, say of cognitive and moble, so we may wend up with just one extension
[17:46] <Detlev> This would address concern about complexity of having several extensions
[17:47] <Detlev> Input from different TFs could feed into one extension - the process should encourage discussion to combine SC whereever possible
[17:47] <Detlev> The Quickref will then bring that together for the outside user
[17:47] <Detlev> David: Diagram has gained traction lots of +1
[17:48] <Detlev> Alistair: Do Working groups work to common time scales?
[17:48] <Detlev> David: No real coordination so far
[17:49] <Detlev> Kathy: A challenge is the coordination between what the different task forces are doing
[17:50] <Detlev> The WG needs to look at that and define how the results are going to be combined - it's currently being worked out within WG
[17:50] <Detlev> Kathy: This should not become a bottleneck but is a serious concern
[17:51] <Detlev> Kathy: What are the basicv rules for extensions? It's likely that there will be several extensions, not one
[17:51] <Detlev> David: should be one extension at the ens of the day
[17:52] <Kathy> q?
[17:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:52] <Detlev> David: the idea is to speed up the overall process - extensions will be easier
[17:53] <Detlev> Kathy: The way the focus on the working group topic and interaction with others work is still not finalised
[17:53] <David> All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.
[17:53] <Detlev> Kathy: Point about 2.5.4 Proposal
[17:54] <Detlev> Kathy: The general gist was that everything that is offered for touch should also work with AT turned on - has anyone worked on the SC text?
[17:54] <Kathy> 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.
[17:55] <agarrison> q+
[17:55] * Zakim sees agarrison on the speaker queue
[17:55] <Kathy> Suggested Modification: 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are available by touch (or button presses) with system assistive technology.
[17:56] <Detlev> David: pointing to the latest draft of 2.5.4 - focus ios that everything has to work for people using AT - there is no pass-through gesture on Android - most is already available after pass-throuigh gesture. Not so on Android
[17:56] <jon_avila> In my experience on iOS the pass through gesture doesn't allow you to lift your first -- I wonder if that could an issue.
[17:56] <Detlev> David: Good wording for SC
[17:57] <Detlev> Alistair: Impact on AT, example on date picker. AT can have big impact on a11y
[17:58] <jon_avila> What assistive technology? If it works with Assistive Touch but not with VO -- it's available with AT but not with all.
[17:58] <Detlev> Alistair: There may be unwanted interactions between different gestures for touch
[17:59] <agarrison> q-
[17:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:59] <Detlev> David: In theory the pass-through gesture (on iOS) should enable other gestures
[17:59] <Detlev> Jon: Pass through gesture may not work in some cases
[18:00] <Detlev> Jon: Some gestures may work with some AT (assistive touch) but not with VoiceOver
[18:00] <Detlev> Jon: The wording is a challenge, may not be specific enough yet
[18:00] <Detlev> David: We cannot enumerate all potential AT
[18:01] <Detlev> Jon: We don't have a standard interface to work with like on the desktop. lots of inconsistency
[18:02] <Detlev> David: The intention was that with any AT needed touch would work - focusing on the system level
[18:02] <Detlev> Kathy: Please think about wording, make suggestions for changes
[18:03] <jon_avila> My technique m23 is in draft form and ready for a review. It is on github.
[18:03] <Detlev> Kathy: Lets pick up discussion next week
[18:03] <Alan_smith> M007 was updated from my github version
[18:03] <Detlev> Kathy: Kim and Jeanne won't be around for next few meetings
[18:04] <Detlev> Zakim. list attendees
[18:04] == Alan_smith [~Alan_smith@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"]
[18:04] <Detlev> Zakim, list attendees
[18:04] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
[18:04] <Detlev> rssagent, make minutes
[18:05] <Kathy> rrsagent, make logs public
[18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Kathy
[18:05] <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
[18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy
[18:05] == marcjohlic [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 40.0.3/20150826023504]"]

--
Detlev Fischer
testkreis c/o feld.wald.wiese
Thedestr. 2, 22767 Hamburg

Mobil +49 (0)1577 170 73 84
Tel +49 (0)40 439 10 68-3
Fax +49 (0)40 439 10 68-5

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Received on Thursday, 1 October 2015 16:11:19 UTC