W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-lod@w3.org > April 2009

Re: "humane" query editors for the data web?

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:40:48 -0400
Message-ID: <49F0EE70.2040701@openlinksw.com>
To: Sherman Monroe <sdmonroe@gmail.com>
CC: public-lod@w3.org
Sherman Monroe wrote:
> Kingsley,
>
> Well said. After all, we preach interoperability and standards to an 
> industry driven by concept of isolate & conquer. In all seriousness, 
> if we are to have any real chance of overcoming the impetus of 
> proprietary interests, then we must first achieve some semblance of 
> solidarity within the ranks of our own community. Yet, some of the 
> initiatives and territorial projects that surface clearly duplicate 
> efforts and at times lack interoperability with similar efforts; in 
> the process, precious focus and energy is wasted. The notion of 
> "standing on the shoulders of your fellows" is frustratingly lacking 
> whereas it should be one of our guiding principles. It is in our 
> interests to coordinate similar efforts, and diligently seek points of 
> synergies were none are apparent. Competition within the community 
> should be shunned and hissed at, seriously. Failure to align our 
> efforts will weaken our collective effort, and cause us to bump 
> against the same walls we're trying to bring down. LOD is 
> fundamentally a revolution in thinking, from a value on competition 
> and silos to the recognition of a much greater value in co-opetition 
> and interoperbility; that revolution must catch fire within the minds 
> of each LODC member before it has a chance of spreading to the rest of 
> the industry. The question each of us should ask ourselves is, do I 
> really believe in what LOD is about? The rest of the industry must be 
> able to look to us as an example of LOD principles at work.
>
> -sherman
Amen!

Homogeneity of purpose must be matched with actions, we have to dog-food 
every aspect of Linked Data :-)

BTW - Any comments re. the UI matters we are discussing? I ask because 
you've felt the pain our service alleviates, first hand, based your 
experience re. Cypher atop DBpedia.

Kingsley
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Kingsley Idehen 
> <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 4/22/09 10:24 PM, "Mike Bergman" <mike@mkbergman.com
>     <mailto:mike@mkbergman.com>> wrote:
>
>     > This has been a classic case of Cool Hand Luke and a failure to
>     > communicate.  Indeed, it happens all of the time in this forum.
>     >
>     > David comes from a perspective of usability and user interfaces,
>     > granted with a JS bias.  Most all of us have recognized his
>     > genius for quite some time, and he is a leading innovator in such
>     > data presentation.
>     >
>     > Kingsley has been a passionate advocate for data connectivity and
>     > overcoming all things "silo".  Middleware is his game (and OL's).
>     >   Data and manipulating data is his perspective, and we know the
>     > superior infrastructure that his personal and then corporate
>     > commitments to these issues have brought.
>     >
>     > Benjamin notes today the difference in perspective.  Does it
>     > begin with the user experience, or does it begin with the data?
>     >
>     > The answer, of course, is Yes.
>     >
>     > David with JSON and MQL and other things FB might be criticized.
>     >   As he knows, I have done so personally offline and directly.
>     >
>     > Kingsley might be criticized for facile hand-waving at UI and
>     > usability questions; he, too, knows I have made those points
>     > privately.
>     >
>     > I truly don't know what our "community" really is or, if indeed,
>     > we even have one.  But I do know this:
>     >
>     > All of us work on these issues because we believe in them and
>     > have passion.  So, I have a simple suggestion:
>     >
>     > Keep looking outward.  We need to talk and speak to the
>     > "unaffiliated".  In that regard, David has the upper hand because
>     > presentation and flash will always be easier to understand for
>     > the non-cognescenti.  But, David, you know this too:  your job is
>     > easier if the nature of the data and its structure drives your
>     > display.
>     >
>     > There are HUGE, HUGE advantages of data driving interfaces and
>     > usability that neither of you are discussing.  Let's next turn
>     > our attention there and gain some major wins at no cost.
>     >
>     > Mike
>
>     Mike,
>
>     First part of this response is to the LOD community in general:
>
>     There is a fundamental point that permeates all my communications
>     about UI
>     and Data Access, and the more recent realm of Linked Data. It
>     simply comes
>     down to this:
>
>     Data Presentation, Data Representation, Data Access, and Data
>     Storage are
>     all distinct items. Each of these realms is a domain of expertise
>     in its own
>     right.
>
>     What Linked Data really and truly addresses is the ability to abstract
>     these distinct realms via HTTP based URIs that deliver the "*"
>     (reference/name) and "&" (address/location) of the 'C' programming
>     language
>     (simple anecdote) in a manner that truly transcends platforms due
>     to the
>     Web's ubiquity.
>
>     I've already completed one iteration of the standards compliant
>     data access
>     and application binding via ODBC, JDBC, OLE-DB, and ADO.NET
>     <http://ADO.NET> etc.. but these
>     approaches all suffered from the pain of data access specific
>     protocols and
>     representations (XDR hell) albeit encapsulated in the Driver
>     implementation
>     work. Even worse, ODBC/JDBC/OLE-DB/ADO.NET <http://ADO.NET>
>     compliant applications all
>     suffered from presentation layer specificity (each App has their
>     own prior
>     to the emergence of HTML and XML+XSLT+CSS), so you had to buy a Report
>     Writer package (or similar desktop productivity tool) to get decent
>     presentation from your DBMS independent data access driver etc..
>
>     The point I am trying to make above is this: ODBC Drivers
>     development and
>     ODBC compliant application development were/are distinct
>     activities with
>     distinct specializations. And although these platform specific and
>     DBMS
>     model specific APIs have issues (as outlined above), the do unveil
>     a very
>     important virtue that the Linked Data community can only benefit
>     from i.e.,
>     know your area of expertise, and maximize it by channeling your
>     effort to
>     the relevant side of a  critical standard.
>
>     Taking OpenLink as an example, we can truly do many things, but our
>     strategic focus is data access middleware and data management.
>     That's what
>     the company has been equipped to do very well since  inception.
>     What we
>     aren't really equipped to do, but have been forced into, as part of an
>     effort to contribute to Linked Data Web bootstrap, is full blown UI
>     development.  ODE, iSPARQL, OAT, and the rudimentary UI around the
>     very
>     powerful ODS platform are current examples.
>
>     What I would like to see more of in this community, is the
>     coalescing of
>     talent around areas of core competence. This is how we will truly
>     produce
>     coherent game changing output.
>
>     We have a standard, its called: Linked Data, much simpler than
>     ODBC, JDBC,
>     etc.. And a zillion times more powerful, so lets not impede outbound
>     progress by a bizarre inability work together coherently, all we
>     have to do
>     is work either side of the standard (as stated already).
>
>     For those who think real collaboration isn't possible in this
>     realm, along
>     the lines I espouse, do note this fact: there isn't a single
>     company on this
>     planet that could digest a modicum of the potential of Linked Data
>     (we are
>     dealing with a fractal space), so we aren't in a zero sum competitive
>     marketplace, the cake is simply too BIG! Thus, co-opetition (as
>     articulate
>     by Ray Noorda eons ago) and symbiosis are going to be the defining
>     hallmarks
>     of all Linked Data oriented markeplaces as we move forward.
>
>     Mike:
>
>     Thanks for your comments, you've provide a nice outlet for me to
>     express
>     some of my pressing concerns re. our community --- I do believe we
>     have one
>     :-)
>
>
>
>     --
>
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Kingsley Idehen          Weblog:
>     http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>     <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/%7Ekidehen>
>     President & CEO
>     OpenLink Software     Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
>
>
>
>
>     >
>     >
>     > David Huynh wrote:
>     >> Kingsley,
>     >>
>     >> Thanks for the resources and the detailed explanation! Looks
>     like all
>     >> the pieces are there!
>     >>
>     >> David
>     >>
>     >> Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>     >>> David Huynh wrote:
>     >>>> Thanks for the link, Juan.
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Just curious, even if I know SPARQL, how do I (as a new user)
>     know
>     >>>> which properties and types there are in the data? And what
>     URIs to
>     >>>> use for what?
>     >>> David,
>     >>>
>     >>> Not speaking for Jaun, but seeking to answer the question you
>     posed.
>     >>>
>     >>> Our iSPARQL interface takes the view that:
>     >>>
>     >>> 1. You lookup vocabularies and ontologies of interest before
>     >>> constructing triple patterns since the terms need to come from
>     somewhere
>     >>> 2. You then you use the ontology/vocabulary tree to drag and drop
>     >>> classes over Subject  and Object nodes
>     >>> 3. Do the same thing re. properties by selecting them and dropping
>     >>> them over the connectors (predicates)
>     >>> 4. Repeat the above until you've completely painted an SPO
>     graph of
>     >>> what you seek.
>     >>>
>     >>> BTW - the pattern in steps 2-4 above originated from RDF
>     Author, and
>     >>> we simply adopted it for SPARQL (following a skype session I
>     had with
>     >>> Danbri years ago re. the need for SPARQL QBE). Note: RDF Author
>     >>> allowed you to write Triples directly into RDF information
>     resources
>     >>> via their URLs. Which means the same UI works fine for SPARUL
>     (writing
>     >>> to Quad Store via its internal Graph IRI or Web Information
>     Resource
>     >>> URL).
>     >>>
>     >>> Links:
>     >>>
>     >>> 1.  http://rdfweb.org/people/damian/RDFAuthor/Tutorial/ -- RDF
>     Author
>     >>>
>     >>> Kingsley
>     >>>>
>     >>>> David
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Juan Sequeda wrote:
>     >>>>> You may want to check out a tool that we are working on: SQUIN
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> http://squin.informatik.hu-berlin.de/SQUIN/
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> Juan Sequeda, Ph.D Student
>     >>>>> Dept. of Computer Sciences
>     >>>>> The University of Texas at Austin
>     >>>>> www.juansequeda.com <http://www.juansequeda.com>
>     <http://www.juansequeda.com>
>     >>>>> www.semanticwebaustin.org <http://www.semanticwebaustin.org>
>     <http://www.semanticwebaustin.org>
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:18 PM, David Huynh
>     <dfhuynh@alum.mit.edu <mailto:dfhuynh@alum.mit.edu>
>     >>>>> <mailto:dfhuynh@alum.mit.edu <mailto:dfhuynh@alum.mit.edu>>>
>     wrote:
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>     Hi all,
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>     Admittedly this is somewhat of a tease and shameless
>     >>>>>     self-promotion :-) but I think there are a few interesting
>     >>>>>     concepts in the query editor for Freebase that I've been
>     working
>     >>>>>     on that can be very useful for querying and consuming
>     LOD data
>     >>>>> sets:
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>       http://www.freebase.com/app/queryeditor/about
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>     Or maybe I missed it totally--is there anything similar for
>     >>>>>     writing SPARQL queries over LOD?
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>     Cheers,
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>     David
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Thanks,
> -sherman
>
> I pray that you may prosper in all things and be healthy, even as your 
> soul prospers
> (3 John 1:2)


-- 


Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	      Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
President & CEO 
OpenLink Software     Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Received on Thursday, 23 April 2009 22:41:30 UTC

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