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RE: Question about MARCXML to Models transformation

From: Tillett, Barbara <btil@loc.gov>
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 07:39:19 -0500
To: "'Ross Singer'" <ross.singer@talis.com>, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org>
CC: Thomas Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de>, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>, "Diane I. Hillmann" <dih1@cornell.edu>, "public-lld@w3.org" <public-lld@w3.org>
Message-ID: <1D525027B29706438707F336D75A279F168103931D@LCXCLMB03.LCDS.LOC.GOV>
Baconian theory is a subdivision under Shakespeare in LCSH, and as such you should be able to get to that "facet" from id.loc.gov - I'll see what if anything is preventing you from getting that.
As for the felxibility of the model - I believe it is open to expansion and adaptation into different data models as needed for applications - FRBR is a theoretical conceptual model.... If we fid applications where there is need for an expression to connect to more than one work, then that application should build that in, and the FRBR Review Borad should be alerted to that fact so they can adjust the conceptual model.  Likewise, if we have a new term (or an old one that was overlooked) in a controlled vocabulary, there are already mechanisms to add and adjust terms to maintain the structures of that controlled vocabulary.  They aren't as cast in stone as you seem to imply. - Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From: public-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-lld-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Ross Singer
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:25 AM
To: Young,Jeff (OR)
Cc: Thomas Baker; Karen Coyle; Diane I. Hillmann; public-lld@w3.org
Subject: Re: Question about MARCXML to Models transformation

I would say the major problem I have with these models that set the expectation of rigidity (e.g. "an Expression must belong to one Work, a Manifestation must belong to one Expression, etc.") is that implies the intersection of omniscience, perfection and comprehensiveness from the outset.

The MADS/RDF's implementation of coordination also runs afoul of this (by using rdf lists).  The irony being that the subject authorities can't themselves be modeled this way without external dependencies
(see: http://id.loc.gov/authorities/sh85120834#concept - not only does id.loc.gov not currently have name resources -- although, obviously they could -- there is no authorized heading for "Baconian theory").

As Diane pointed out earlier about trying to model MARC records as "types", it's difficult to model the world and impossible to keep up with the changes that evolution brings while maintaining integrity with your backfile.

While RDF's "you can only know what you're looking directly at"
principle seems somewhat existential, it's also built on pragmatism.
I can't help but think there's got to be some middle ground somewhere.
 If we can agree on this sweet spot, somewhere between dogma and abandon (which, really, isn't as big a gulf as it seems, it's just that they're fundamentally disjointed) with an acknowledgement of both will dramatically lower the kinetic energy needed to start getting data modeled.

Some of these may be fairly simple (changing MADS/RDF's coordination lists to rdf containers, for example), others, like abstracting away the strictness of FRBRer (such as implying parts of the WEMI stack, coupled with explicit parts elsewhere -- similar to what the Open Library does), while still representing a compatible data model, might be less trivial but allow for the creation of much more content.

At some point we (and by "we" I don't necessarily mean this group, but the library community as a whole) need to step back and what exactly we hope to accomplish and how that might realistically be done.


On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Young,Jeff (OR) <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote:
> I half agree. The guiding light for whether something is a WEM or I 
> isn't necessarily the class name or its definition, it's the 
> sensibility of properties. WEMI is what it is because the FRBR 
> designers put careful thought into the property names separating them: 
> "is realized through", "is embodied in", and "is exemplified by".
> For example, this statement "makes sense" to me and I guessing 
> everyone else (forget FRBR for a second):
> "A newspaper editorial is a realization of a opinion."
> Is this use of "is a realization of" merely a pun or is its meaning 
> the same as that found in the FRBR model? I would argue it's the same, 
> which means (through domain/range settings) that an "Opinion" is a 
> Work (presumably in the sub-class sense) and "Newspaper Editorial" is 
> an "Expression" (also in the subclass sense).
> These subclass assignments may not be obvious in isolation, but when 
> used in statements involving properties their nature becomes clearer.
> Jeff
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-lld-request@w3.org [mailto:public-lld-request@w3.org] 
> > On Behalf Of Thomas Baker
> > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:14 AM
> > To: Karen Coyle
> > Cc: Diane I. Hillmann; public-lld@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Question about MARCXML to Models transformation
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 06, 2011 at 09:35:22AM -0800, Karen Coyle wrote:
> > > I actually think that we should emphasize the "has a" rather than
> "is
> > > a" aspects of the resources we describe, and let the "has a" allow
> us
> > > to infer any number of "is a" qualities. This is the message that
> Jon
> > > Phipps gave at the tutorial day at DC in Pittsburgh -- that we 
> > > describe things by their characteristics, and those 
> > > characteristics tell us what the thing *is*.
> >
> > Yes, that sounds right to me.  Emphasize Properties
> > (relationships) over Classes. Verbs over nouns.  Describe things 
> > less through giving them a name -- i.e., writing a definition for a 
> > class of things to which they belong -- and more through enumerating 
> > their characteristics.
> >
> > --
> > Tom Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de>
> >
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Received on Tuesday, 8 March 2011 12:40:12 UTC

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