- From: Gregg Kellogg <gregg@greggkellogg.net>
- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:50:38 -0800
- To: Linked JSON <public-linked-json@w3.org>
Thanks to Benjamin Young for scribing this week! The minutes now available: https://json-ld.org/minutes/2018-02-26/index.html.
Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Gregg Kellogg
gregg@greggkellogg.net
JSON-LD Community Group Minutes for 2018-02-26
Agenda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2018Feb/0027.html
Topics:
1. Charter
2. Pull Requests
3. Issues
4. #488 Properties can not be relative IRI
5. #333 Support JSON values that aren’t mapped
6. #491 define how to specify the json-ld profile in a request
7. #547 Content addressable context
Resolutions:
1. forward charter to W3C Management for consideration
2. accept PR #94 and #593
3. adopt @vocab: @base gramar, and use RFC3986 resolution in
this case.
4. adopt solution defined in
https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/333#issuecomment-366766394
as an interum solution, with final selection of the datatype to a
future WG.
Organizer:
Gregg Kellogg
Scribe:
Present:
Gregg Kellogg, Ivan Herman, Benjamin Young, Robert Sanderson,
Niklas Lindström, Paolo Ciccarese, Ted Thibodeau Jr., Rob Trainer
Audio:
https://json-ld.github.io/minutes/2018-02-26/audio.ogg
Topic: Charter
Gregg Kellogg: Charter document is at
https:///json-ld.github.io/charter
PROPOSAL: forward charter to W3C Management for consideration
Ivan Herman: (Missed specifics on introduction to issue)
Ivan Herman: ...And it'd be good to have issues wrapped up as
much as possible before voting ends
Ivan Herman: ...Technical issues can stay open, for the WG to
address after it's official
Ivan Herman: ...But the chairs and staff will need to discuss
specifics of the issues list
RESOLUTION: forward charter to W3C Management for consideration
Topic: Pull Requests
Gregg Kellogg: There are 3 open PRs that are under consideration
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...2 Are pretty straightforward
Benjamin Young: ...Unless someone wants to discuss these more
now, I'm going to propose that we'll adopt them now
PROPOSAL: accept PR #594 and #593
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Robert Sanderson: +1
Ivan Herman: 0 (I have not looked at them:-(
Niklas Lindström: +1 (With caveat that I haven't really looked at
593)
Paolo Ciccarese: 0
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +0
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/pull/593
Benjamin Young: ...Update the Expansion Algorithm to use an
explicit _frame expansion_ flag
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/pull/594
Benjamin Young: Fix compaction on scoped contexts based on @type
Benjamin Young: +1
RESOLUTION: accept PR #94 and #593
Gregg Kellogg: We can always look at these more in the future
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Topic: Issues
Topic: #488 Properties can not be relative IRI
Benjamin Young: ...TallTed is here to talk relative IRI
resolution
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: The basic point is that we want to be able to
use JSON-LD in the same way we use Turtle [scribe assist by
Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/488
Benjamin Young: ...Current the difference between the two formats
handling of URIs is odd to say the least
Benjamin Young: ...Especially the difference between property and
values
Gregg Kellogg: RDFa has a vocab attribute that works to make
values relative [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...Perhaps niklas's memory on this would be
helpful
Benjamin Young: ...I believe we'd talked about relative URIs
using concatenation rather than RFC3986's IRI resolution
Benjamin Young: ...And there was concern of undesirable effects
Niklas Lindström: The confusion might be cleared up with the
understanding that the value of keys is like pnames in turtle
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...And the value space of @id is similar to the <
> space in turtle
Benjamin Young: ...With the caveat of the @type value...which
maps to the short names of types in Turtle
Benjamin Young: ...Consequently I'm not sure I quite see the
conflict
Benjamin Young: ...If you don't use string concatenation, then
you can't use anything ending in a #
Benjamin Young: ...Because it doesn't survive the relativization
process
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: I can see that it doesn't have a zero basis
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...But I fear the confusion will persist
Benjamin Young: ...And not just for us
Benjamin Young: ...I understand the arguments
Benjamin Young: ...We'd like to express the same thing with a
JSON-LD doc as a Turtle doc
Benjamin Young: ...That's what we need
Benjamin Young: ...And that relative URI is what we feel we need
to do that
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: iherman
Benjamin Young: ...That thing that makes it trivial to throw up a
document without knowing the full URIs before you put it on the
Web
Ivan Herman: Can you put an example where JSON-LD is different
than Turtle [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/488
Niklas Lindström: I believe the examples are linked from issue
#488 [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: For example, <#relative>
Gregg Kellogg: I think it's relatively understood that it's
defined relative to the document base [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Ted Thibodeau Jr.:
https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/pull/225#issuecomment-361353162
Benjamin Young: ...And JSON-LD does not provide for
that...well...it does, but in an unusual way
Benjamin Young: ...You can define @vocab and define properties
relative to that
Niklas Lindström: "Prop" {"@id": "some/path"} == :prop
<some/path> != <prop> and <some/path>
Benjamin Young: ...But there's no way to say that @vocab space is
the same as document space
Gregg Kellogg: "@Vocab": "@base"
Niklas Lindström: The problem is that if you don't have a hash
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...The link I just posed has 2 different JSON
markups
Niklas Lindström: The problem is that if you don't have a
hash/TallTed: the problem is that if you don't have a hash
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...So if the solution is just to put in the
@vocab of "empty"...
Gregg Kellogg: Well...that wouldn't work because it's not
resolved relative to the document base when empty [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...So we need some way of mapping @vocab to the
document base
Benjamin Young: ...Which is why we've discussed @vocab: @base
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: gkellogg
Gregg Kellogg: My propose way of fixing this is to use @vocab:
@base [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...To tie the vocab space to the document space
Benjamin Young: ...When that is done, then the IRI resolution
switches from concatenation to IRI resolution from RFC3986
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: niklasl
Benjamin Young: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
Niklas Lindström: Well, it gets complicated with #'s doesn't it?
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: Well, in Kingsley's example he was using hash
relative ones [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...If it started with a hash, then it'd be fine
Benjamin Young: ...If it ended with a hash, then you'd end up
with 2 hashes
Benjamin Young: ...However, if you used @vocab: @base, then it
might replace the last hash component
Niklas Lindström: I don't quite see the use case [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...It feels more academic than industrial
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Well, since this is driven by an industrial
need [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Niklas Lindström: So in Turtle you do this now? [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Yes. [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Niklas Lindström: Do you have an example you can publish?
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg:
http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/Public/Linked%20Data%20Documents/Nanotations/basic-test2.txt
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Not as such. but if you look at the pages we
publish we have embedded Turtle, and we'd like JSON-LD islands
also [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...It forces use to know where the page will live
prior to publication
Benjamin Young: ...This is a little bit hand wavy, because it's
not currently possible to do this
Benjamin Young: ...But ideally, someone can author a page
Benjamin Young: ...Make some link data statements in various ways
that are relative to that page
Benjamin Young: ...And in the Turtle space this works fine and
has for years
Benjamin Young: ...But when we went to do this in JSON-LD, things
got complicated
Niklas Lindström: K. I can see that. but I still don't see the
criticality of it [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...We really need to consider the implications of
a change like this
Benjamin Young: ...I think it's more author for an author to be
explicity
Benjamin Young: ...But it's just opinion and not fact
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Well, consider you're authoring in an
Intranet [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...And using author storage space IRIs
Benjamin Young: ...And when it comes time to publish, then all
the embedded IRIs need updating
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: iherman
Ivan Herman: So. wearing my old semantic web hat [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...I think it's a bad idea if Turtle's
expressivity and JSON-LD expressivity differ
Benjamin Young: ...I don't really care about RDF/XML...peace upon
it
Benjamin Young: ...But Turtle is the format of the Semantic Web
community
Benjamin Young: ...And JSON-LD can do well to learn from it
Benjamin Young: ...I do think it's a problem if there are too
many similar, but incompatible serializations of RDF
Gregg Kellogg: I think we can split my proposal into 2 parts
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...@Vocab: @base
Benjamin Young: ...And separate from that is the way we construct
IRIs using that
Benjamin Young: ...It's equally confusing if we use 2 IRI
resolution systems
Benjamin Young: ...Or conversely if we use string concat as with
everywhere else
Ivan Herman: @Base is the document IRI if not redefined? [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...Like in Turtle?
Gregg Kellogg: Yes. [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Ivan Herman: TallTed would that work as a solution? [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: I believe so, yes [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Gregg Kellogg: As always the devil's in the details [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...The bigger question is how @vocab: @base
effects the IRI resolution
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: What are the options? [scribe assist by
Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: Currently, we resolve things against @vocab using
string concatenation [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...Whereas, if you use RFC3986 resolution, dot
sequences get resolved
Benjamin Young: ...The last sequence of a hash gets replaced
unless the IRI ends in a slash
Ivan Herman: Isn't it the same in Turtle [scribe assist by
Benjamin Young]
Niklas Lindström: For the <> space, yes, but not for prefixes
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...So, for clarification, would it turn @type
space into <> space?
Gregg Kellogg: Yeah. that's essentially the question [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...Now as an example of that, @type is different
than pretty much anything else
PROPOSAL: adopt @vocab
Rob Trainer: While gkellogg is typing, I'm +1 to @vocab: @base
and RFC3986 resolution [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Benjamin Young: ...Anything we can do to improve the clarity
around how resolution will also help
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +1
Niklas Lindström: +0.1 (I'm not sure about complexity,
understanding and actual production value of it)
Ivan Herman: +1 (Provided we do not find too many devils in the
details)
Benjamin Young: +1 (But I think defining the consequences is
necessary)
Ivan Herman: So. +1 is for moving toward a PR, correct? [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
RESOLUTION: adopt @vocab: @base gramar, and use RFC3986
resolution in this case.
Gregg Kellogg: Yes. we'll need consensus on the PR [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Topic: #333 Support JSON values that aren’t mapped
Benjamin Young: ...Onward. looks like we have 20 more minutes
Niklas Lindström:
https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/333
Benjamin Young: ...Essentially, it would be nice to have a
JSON-native data type
Ivan Herman: The equivalent of rdf:HTML or rdf:XML, right?
Benjamin Young: ...For instance, if you were including GeoJSON,
there's really no way to do that unless you're ignoring all of it
or trying to interpret it all as JSON-LD
Benjamin Young: ...So my proposal would be to expand the
notation for @value
Benjamin Young: ...So, @value could hold an object or an array
Benjamin Young: ...Something like "@value": [{"native": "json"}]
Benjamin Young: ...Which could be mapped via a context as
{@context: "json-value": {"@type": "jsonld:JSON"}, "json-value":
{"native": "json"}}
Benjamin Young: ...Given the need to define a datatype, we'll
need to make this official as a WG, is that right iherman ?
Ivan Herman: Yes. we can explore it now, but to make it
official, we'd have to do it normatively as part of a WG [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...And possibly even within the rdf: namespace
Gregg Kellogg: Well...the existing rdf: is part of RDF concepts,
isn't it? [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Niklas Lindström: Rdf:XMLLiteral
Ivan Herman: Yeah. the details of making this happen are in the
future, but it's not dissimilar to rdf:HTML and rdf:XMLLiteral
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Gregg Kellogg: So I think we can probably proceed forward
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Ivan Herman: To make it cleaner, we might put an explicit note
that this is a temporary namespace URI and not the final one
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...And it's expected to be updated
PROPOSAL: adopt solution defined in https
Ivan Herman: +1
Rob Trainer: Noting that pure JSON-LD that never expand things
to triples, won't see this, correct? [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Gregg Kellogg: Well... not exactly. the processor will need to
know when to keep it and/or process it [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Niklas Lindström: +1 (Detail: not just array and object, all of
JSON preferably...)
Benjamin Young: ...One way would be to @type: @json
Niklas Lindström: Yup...
Benjamin Young: +1 (To move toward exploring as a PR)
Gregg Kellogg: Any other thoughts? [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Niklas Lindström: With the caveat that I think this should
support all of JSON [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +0
Benjamin Young: ...Numbers, booleans, etc.
Benjamin Young: ...If you have a system that needs something raw
as "just JSON" it needs to avoid tripping those processors up
Gregg Kellogg: Where this might run into issues is that
everything ends up as an array when processed [scribe assist by
Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...So it becomes impossible to know what's
supposed to be a number intentionally and what would be
separately stated to be a number
Benjamin Young: ...We do something similar with @set
Niklas Lindström: It's going to be hard to understand I'm afraid
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Ivan Herman: We do need to watch for complexity [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...It is something we need to watch for as we
move toward WG
RESOLUTION: adopt solution defined in
https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/333#issuecomment-366766394
as an interum solution, with final selection of the datatype to a
future WG.
Topic: #491 define how to specify the json-ld profile in a request
Gregg Kellogg: So. when I make a request of the server that I
want to expressly have it framed [scribe assist by Benjamin
Young]
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/491
Benjamin Young: ...Similarly, how might I tell the server that I
want it compacted
Benjamin Young: ...Anyone invested in this one?
Benjamin Young: ...Let's differ and ask again on a future call
Benjamin Young: ...To see if the major supports show up to argue
its case
Topic: #547 Content addressable context
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/547
Gregg Kellogg: This one covers how to deal in part with cross
protocol issues, but also means of resolving contexts where an
HTTP IRI may not be reliable for other reasons (caches, etc)
[scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...There are many ideas explored in this issue
Benjamin Young: ...As noted in the issue, the document loader
already supports this by having it's own document cache
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: iherman
Ivan Herman: Why is this type of issue part of this type of
specification? [scribe assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...This starts to get into protocol design
Benjamin Young: ...And perhaps not part of the language
specification
Robert Sanderson: (Regrets, arrived at meeting that I was on the
train for, and fell off voice)
Gregg Kellogg: We do use profiles for compacted, etc. [scribe
assist by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...And there are real life use cases for this
like Verifiable Claims, etc.
Ivan Herman: K. well maybe its an editorial issue [scribe assist
by Benjamin Young]
Benjamin Young: ...Perhaps it's cleaner to separate everything
that's HTTP related into a separate document
Benjamin Young: ...It's a bit concerning to have the mixture of
things in 2 places.
Gregg Kellogg: Ack: bigbluehat
Benjamin Young: I think we should defer this to another call,
but it boils down to the lack of a promisorial nature of any URI
that’s not matched to a content hash that includes it’s on
validation, so that it can’t be used in a decentralized
fashion. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … There is no way that the URI will mean
something today and not tomorrow. It may be a protocol issue.
when you state as a publisher what I’m giving you, and we need
something more promisorial.
Ivan Herman: In a sense, this reinforces what I said: it is a
problem, but not for this working group. [scribe assist by Gregg
Kellogg]
Benjamin Young: Maybe we just note in the document that are
different IRIs that are more suitable. [scribe assist by Gregg
Kellogg]
Received on Monday, 26 February 2018 17:51:11 UTC