Re: Default RDF serialization

As I said on our call earlier this week, we need to focus our discussions 
on actual proposals, otherwise we're just going to keep filling up our 
mailboxes with opinions sent back and forth and not deliver anything. 
Could someone - Reza maybe? - please explain how they would change the 
Member submission we are starting from "to create a separation between 
serialization and model"?

If it's just about not requiring any serialization formats, couldn't this 
be achieved by defining two different levels of compliance?

As I said before, this WG was motivated by the need for a specification 
that basically nails down some of the choices people have to make among 
all the options they have and which hinder interoperability around RDF. 
Leaving the serialization format entirely open defeats that goal.

Regards.
--
Arnaud  Le Hors - Software Standards Architect - IBM Software Group


Bart van Leeuwen <Bart_van_Leeuwen@netage.nl> wrote on 08/24/2012 12:25:25 
AM:

> From: Bart van Leeuwen <Bart_van_Leeuwen@netage.nl>
> To: reza.bfar@oracle.com, 
> Cc: public-ldp-wg@w3.org
> Date: 08/24/2012 12:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Default RDF serialization
> 
> "Reza B'Far (Oracle)" <reza.bfar@oracle.com> wrote on 23-08-2012 
21:19:39:
> 
> > From: "Reza B'Far (Oracle)" <reza.bfar@oracle.com> 
> > To: public-ldp-wg@w3.org, 
> > Date: 23-08-2012 21:35 
> > Subject: Re: Default RDF serialization 
> > 
> > While I hate to sound like a broken record, I think at this point 
> > there is enough input from various folks on the thread (Arthur, 
> > Steve, Kingsley, David, Ashok, etc.) that the key is to separate 
> > model from serialization.  If that separation is made, then we can 
> > address things like performance, specific serialization formats 
> > (JSON-LD, etc.), potentially add new serialization formats in the 
> > future, enforce consistency between serialization formats via the 
> model, etc.
> > 
> > So, IMHO, the first step would be to create a separation between 
> > serialization and model.  Otherwise, I don't see us coming to a 
> > consensus around which serialization format(s) should be selected 
> > (unless we select all of them in which case we'll have a few years 
> > worth of work to do).
> > 
> > Best.
> 
> +1 
> 
> Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards
> Bart van Leeuwen 
> @semanticfire
> 
> ##############################################################
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> 
> 
> > 
> > On 8/23/12 12:13 PM, Arthur Keen wrote: 
> > Can the LDP-WG consider performance as one of the criteria for 
> > selecting a default serialization?  RDF topology can factor into 
> > serialization performance.
> > For example, it can be very inefficient to serialize dense tabular 
> > data and time series data (measurements) into these RDF 
serializations. 
> > 
> > Is there a way for us to have  triple-oriented serialization for 
> > sparse topologies and a tabular serialization for tabular RDF data 
> > in the same serialization?
> > 
> > Arthur
> > 
> > 
> > On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
> >  wrote:
> > 
> 
> > On 8/23/12 10:19 AM, Steve K Speicher wrote:
> 
> > I strongly agree as well with these points.  The only reason RDF/XML 
was
> > the only required serialization the member submission is it was the 
only
> > W3C Recommendation and we attempted to only reference "official"
> > standards.
> 
> > 
> > Yes, I understand. Just as (after all these years) I'll never 
> > understand why the W3C hasn't acted on this most distracting and 
> > negative reality.
> > 
> > If RDF/XML's status as the sole syntax can't be addressed by putting
> > Turtle on the same standing, then we have even more reasons for an 
> > overt and explicit loose coupling of RDF and Linked Data. Sadly, we 
> > have the complete opposite.
> > 
> 
> >  Since this appears to be changing within W3C, then this
> > limitation no longer exists.  There was no technical reason, the
> > preference would be Turtle.  There is some consideration in the amount 
of
> > broad support for the serializations and therefore RDF/XML had a 
little
> > appeal but that is perhaps taking a too narrow view without the desire 
to
> > move things in right direction.
> 
> > 
> > RDF/XML provides no benefits to folks that aren't building 
> > transformers. Folks like us build data (typically XML sources) 
> > transformers (cartridges) using RDF/XML, all of that happens behind 
> > the scenes and has no real impact on end-users and developers bar 
> > offering a plethora of formats for Linked Data Document content, via
> > content negotiation.
> > 
> 
> > 
> > I think you may have underestimated the problem you identified in (d) 
as
> > this is something that I deal with on a fairly regular basis.
> > 
> > My preference order for RDF serialization formats would be:
> > 1) Turtle  (minimal requirement)
> 
> > 
> > This is for end-users, integrators, and programmers.
> > 
> 
> > 2) JSON-LD
> 
> > For JSON programmers.
> 
> > 3) RDF/XML
> 
> > 
> > For XML programmers that understand RDF != XML.
> > 
> > Kingsley
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Steve Speicher
> > IBM Rational Software
> > OSLC - Lifecycle integration inspired by the web ->
> > http://open-services.net
> > 
> > David Booth <david@dbooth.org> wrote on 08/23/2012 10:08:05 AM:
> > 
> 
> > From: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>
> > To: public-ldp-wg@w3.org,
> > Date: 08/23/2012 10:10 AM
> > Subject: Default RDF serialization
> > 
> > FWIW, if the LD profile is going to recommend one RDF serialization as
> > the default for RDF, I would argue strongly that it should be Turtle
> > instead of RDF/XML, because:
> > 
> >  (a) Turtle is far more human friendly to read;
> >  (b) RDF/XML is not XML Schema friendly;
> >  (c) RDF/XML has XML-based restrictions (such as prohibiting local 
names
> > that start with a digit) that make certain RDF difficult to represent;
> >  (d) RDF/XML has had a history of misleading developers who are 
familiar
> > with XML (but not RDF) into thinking that RDF is just a kind of XML.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > -- 
> > David Booth, Ph.D.
> > http://dbooth.org/
> > 
> > Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not 
necessarily
> > reflect those of his employer.
> > 
> > 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Kingsley Idehen 
> > Founder & CEO
> > OpenLink Software
> > Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> > Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> > Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
> > Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
> > LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> > 
> >