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Re: Closing issue [arabicnum-03]

From: Rasha Morgan <rasham@eg.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:15:41 +0300
To: momoi@netscape.com (Katsuhiko Momoi)
Cc: Ahmed Talaat <AHMEDT@eg.ibm.com>, Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>, Gilan Felfela <gilanf@eg.ibm.com>, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, Mark Davis <mark.davis@us.ibm.com>, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>, public-iri@w3.org, Simon Montagu <smontagu@netscape.com>, Tarek Abou Aly <Tarek_Abou-Ali@eg.ibm.com>, Yung-Fong Tang <ytang0648@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OF2594F933.FC95ADE8-ONC2256D24.003BF436-C2256D24.0048D91A@portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>


Hello Momoi-san,
IE reads the system settings and accordingly decides about the numeric
shapes.
However Netscape/Mozilla try to be system independent, so to solve this
they defaulted to contextual shaping, this might not be the best option in
some Arab countries, so what can be done is to default to contextual when
the default browser locale is for one of the Arab countries which use
National digits.
Or optimally to add in the preference an item for the Arabic numeric shapes
for the user to choose.

Have a nice day
Rasha Morgan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hardest victory is victory over self. Aristotle
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advisory Globalization Specialist, team leader
IBM Egypt Branch,
Pyramids Heights,
Building No. 10
22 Km. Cairo - Alex. Desert Road,
Guiza, Egypt.
Tel:  SB: +202 5392539    ext 1409        DID: +202 536 1409
Fax. +20 2 539 2505

E-mail : rasham@eg.ibm.com
VM     : RASHAM  at  IBMEG
http://ctdc.cairo.ibm.com/CairoTDCWebsite/home.jsp





                                                                                                                                       
                      momoi@netscape.co                                                                                                
                      m (Katsuhiko             To:       Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL                                           
                      Momoi)                   cc:       Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>, Rasha Morgan/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG,                  
                                                public-iri@w3.org, Ahmed Talaat/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Gilan Felfela/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Tarek  
                      08/05/2003 07:03          Abou Aly/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Mark Davis/Cupertino/IBM@IBMUS, Mark Davis                   
                                               <mark@macchiato.com>, Simon Montagu <smontagu@netscape.com>, Yung-Fong Tang            
                                                <ytang0648@aol.com>                                                                    
                                               Subject:  Re: Closing issue [arabicnum-03]                                              
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       



Mati,

Thanks for your comments. My comments below.

Matitiahu Allouche wrote:
      If I remember well, the preference for number shaping appears (in
      Windows
      Regional Options) only when the selected locale is an Arabic one.
      This
      preference determines whether digits (hexa 30 to 39) should be
      presented
      always as European numbers, always as Hindi numbers or depending on
      context.  Depending on context means that hexa 30 to 39 are presented
      as
      European numbers when the last previous letter was not an Arabic one,
      and
      as Hindi numbers if it was an Arabic letter.

      This is not undefined, nor unpredictable and varying, to use Martin's

      words.

      Section 13.3 in TUS 3.0 only deprecates using Numeric Shape selectors

      (U+206E and U+206F) to control the glyphs used for presenting
      numbers. The
      last sentence says "This state (nominal) is the default state in the
      absence of any numeric shape selector or a higher-level protocol",
      which
      leaves the door open to selection of digit glyphs based on a
      higher-level
      protocol.   Preferences at the Operating System level or at the
      browser
      level are definitely a higher-level protocol, and they should be
      considered good Unicode citizens, IMHO.

      So it seems to me that Netscape is performing correctly (I don't
      remember
      how it sets its default handling of numeric shaping, probably not
      based on
      Windows preferences, since it tries to be platform independent), and
      IE
      behaves differently because it relies on the Windows preferences,
      which on
      a Japanese-locale will always select the European glyphs for numbers.
My experiments on Windows XP-en shows that when the locale is set to
Arabic/Egypt, IE6 and NN7.02 behave exactly the same as far as contextual
numeral changes are concerned, i.e. they both perform numeral changes.

But when the locale is something other than a bidi one, NN7.02 still
performs contextual numeral changes while IE6 does not. This seems to be
what Martin noticed on his Japanese locale Windows.

If the parity with IE6 is what we want, we might change this behavior so
that the pref item, bidi.numeral, will have a value of  "1" (i.e. numeral
change occurs) only if the user locale is a bidi one.

- Kat




      Shalom (Regards),  Mati
                 Bidi Architect
                 Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
                 IBM Israel
                 Phone: +972 2 5888802    Fax: +972 2 5870333    Mobile:
      +972 52
      554160


      To:        Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>
      cc:        Rasha Morgan/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, public-iri@w3.org, Matitiahu

      Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL, Ahmed Talaat/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Gilan
      Felfela/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Tarek Abou Aly/Egypt/IBM@IBMEG, Mark
      Davis/Cupertino/IBM@IBMUS, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, Simon
      Montagu
      <smontagu@netscape.com>, Yung-Fong Tang <ytang0648@aol.com>
      Subject:        Re: Closing issue [arabicnum-03]



      Please refer to the following bug for this issue:

      http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=181711

      Rasha, I think you should argue your position in the above bug if you
      feel strongly but Simon indicates in his latest comments that Gecko
      should follow Section 13.3 of Unicode 3.0 as referred to by Martin.

      - Kat

      Martin Duerst wrote:


            Hello Rasha,

            Many thanks for your comments.

            At 14:09 03/05/06 +0300, Rasha Morgan wrote:


                  Hello Martin,
                  Regarding numeric shapes in the browser, they should
                  follow the system
                  settings,


            I have a Japanese system, and don't remember having made such
            a system setting. And you seem to imply that if such a system
            setting is present, all the digits would appear as Arabic
            digits. Fortunately for me, that's not the case. Even on the
            page
            in question (
            http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/BidiExamples),
            only digits in vicinity of Arabic characters change shape.
            I'm not sure what the rule/algorithm is that Netscape uses for
            this.
            I don't like undefined (and therefore unpredictable and
            varying)
            behavior.



                  so if it is contextual or national they should appear in
                  Arabic
                  digits. Otherwise they should appear in European digits.


            Who made up this rule? Unicode clearly states otherwise, as I
            already
            have explained (see below). And HTML and XML are based on
            Unicode.



                  So Netscape is working properly, please don't ask to
                  disable this
                  feature.
                  also IE behaves the same way.


            In my case, IE doesn't, as I have explained before (see below).



                  Numeric shapes are part of the country culture and should
                  not be
                  deprecated.


            I haven't said anything that would deprecate Arabic(-Indic)
            digits.
            Unicode has them, and anybody who wants to use them can use
            them.
            However, I wanted the digits in my page, which are European
            digits,
            to be displayed as European digits, and I think any browser (or
            other
            application, for that matter) that tries to change this behind
            my
            back is doing something wrong.

            Regards, Martin.




                  Have a nice day
                  Rasha Morgan
                  Advisory Globalization Specialist, team leader
                  IBM Egypt Branch,
                  ----- Forwarded by Rasha Morgan/Egypt/IBM on 06/05/2003
                  01:18 -----

                  ----- Forwarded by Ahmed Talaat/Egypt/IBM on 04/05/2003
                  12:47 -----


                  ---------------------- Forwarded by Matitiahu
                  Allouche/Israel/IBM on
                  04/05/2003 09:50 ---------------------------


                  Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>@w3.org on 02/05/2003
                  23:57:44

                  Sent by: public-iri-request@w3.org


                  To: public-iri@w3.org
                  cc:

                  Subject: Closing issue [arabicnum-03]


                  This serves to close
                  http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/#arabicnum-03.

                  I had put this issue on the issues list because in
                  examples
                  7-9 of the BidiExamples page
                  (http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/BidiExamples),
                  I saw Arabic-Indic digits in the Arabic examples rather
                  than the European digits that I was expecting.

                  Further examination has shown that this is a browser
                  issue.
                  Netscape 7 (/Mozilla) is the only browser that I have
                  found
                  that converts digit shapes when displaying them. Tango,
                  IE6, Safari, and Opera don't change digit shapes.

                  Section 13.3 (http://www.unicode.org/book/ch13.pdf, p.
                  320)
                  of Unicode 3.0 is clear that nominal behavior (not
                  changing
                  the glyphs used to display the digits) is correct, and
                  using national digit shaping would only be acceptable if
                  using the deprecated and strongly discouraged numeric
                  shape selectors (which I have of course not used).
                  So Netscape/Mozilla is wrong here, and should be fixed.
                  I have told somebody in the i18n team at Netscape.

                  I have added a note at the top of the BidiExamples page
                  saying that a browser doing digit shaping correctly
                  should
                  be used. I have closed this issue.

                  Regards, Martin.



      --
      Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@netscape.com>
      Senior International Manager, Web Standards/Embedding
      Netscape Technology Evangelism/Developer Support


--
Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@netscape.com>
Senior International Manager, Web Standards/Embedding
Netscape Technology Evangelism/Developer Support
Received on Monday, 12 May 2003 09:26:50 GMT

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