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i18n ITS minutes 2006-03-15

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:09:06 +0900
Message-ID: <4418C8C2.2030809@w3.org>
To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
Hi,

The minutes of yesterday's call are at
http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html
and below as text.

Cheers,

Felix

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        i18n ITS working group

15 Mar 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0186.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Andrzej, Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Sebastian, Yves

   Regrets
          Diane

   Chair
          Yves

   Scribe
          Felix

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]action items
         2. [6]Mandelieu proposals
         3. [7]next face-to-face
         4. [8]on the mapping discussion
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

action items

   <scribe> ACTION: Tag set editors to integrate discussion result
   about bugs 2881,2,3 (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to work on XHTML + ITS modularization
   (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]

   [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0
   298.html

     [12]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0298.html

   Sebastian: This is an illustration, just an example how the rules
   might work

   Yves: yes, esp. for the DTD it is hard to create hard defined rules

   Sebastian: The more important question is how to get it in the DTD

   Yves: if you change the DTD, it is no longer XHTML

   Sebastian: Maybe the prose could say "this is a DTD which cannot be
   changed. This shows why we need external rules"

   Yves: and you can use the HTML @class attribute to use
   translatability local

   <scribe> ACTION: All to read and comment on RI's notes (ONGOING)
   [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]

   Yves: we have to come back to this after talking about the Mandelieu
   proposals

   <scribe> ACTION: All comment on Mandelieu 9 proposals ('agree' or
   'need discussion') (DONE) [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]

   <scribe> ACTION: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples
   how to use its:locInfoRef (decide on distinction of "alert" versus
   "description") (PENDING) [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]

   <scribe> ACTION: Richard to describe an additional level of
   conformance for Ruby (PENDING) [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to update bugzilla with open issues.
   (DROPPED) [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]

   <scribe> ACTION: Christian and Felix need to update their result of
   conformance discussion in the spec. (ONGOING) [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]

   Felix: not finished, but we have a good agreement on how to go

Mandelieu proposals

   Yves: we had discussion on editor call, and discussion between
   Richard and Felix

   <YvesS>
   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0
   283.html

     [19]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0283.html

   Yves: these are the final proposals

   proposal01 and proposal02

   Christian: just an observation
   ... also, using names of elements might be more difficult than
   attributes

   Sebastian: as you implement this, element names might be more
   natural
   ... as for CSS, we could have a selector on documentRule, to have
   similar grouping

   Yves: would that be an improvement?

   Sebastian: If you want to express multiple bits of information about
   the same information

   Felix: would that not be more verbose?

   <rahtz> <its:documentRules>

   <rahtz> <its:ruleSelector="//trans">

   <rahtz> <its:translateRule its:translate="no"/>

   <rahtz> <its:documentRule its:translate="no"/>

   <rahtz> </its:ruleSelector>

   <rahtz> <its:ruleSelector="/body/p[$1\47]/@foo">

   <rahtz> <its:translateRule its:term="yes"/>

   <rahtz> </its:ruleSelector>

   <rahtz> </its:documentRules>

   Felix: how about putting this as a remark in the draft, and ask for
   feedback?

   Yves: how about having this as an remark in the next draft and look
   for feedback?

   Sebastian: it would make the XHTML example more verbose maybe

   Yves: the change might be necessary for translatability, term, ruby
   ... actually the different data categories rarely overlap

   <scribe> ACTION: put a note on the proposal for grouping data
   categories in next working draft [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]

   Sebastian: One motivation for this was validation

   <rahtz> <its:documentRules>

   <rahtz> <its:ruleSelector="//trans">

   <rahtz> <its:translateRule its:translate="no"/>

   <rahtz> </its:ruleSelector>

   <rahtz> <its:ruleSelector="/body/p[$1\47]/@foo">

   <rahtz> <its:term="yes"/>

   <rahtz> </its:ruleSelector>

   <rahtz> <its:translateMap select="//*/@trans"/>

   <rahtz> </its:documentRules>

   Yves: we need to make decisions on some proposals
   ... everybody happy with implementing proposal 1 and 2? taking
   Sebastians example in the draft as a note into account?

   Sebastian: I would like to go ahead with this

   Yves: proposal 1 and 2 accepted

   proposal 3

   Yves: everybody agreed on that

   Sebastian: one worry:
   ... people might put markup into the <locInfo> element
   ... we could have a remark "currently we support only unicode
   characters", no content

   Felix: is this necessary for this specific element

   Richard: we are putting this in an element because of i18n issues
   like bidi

   Felix: valid points. But maybe we should discuss its:span, and then
   use the same stuff for the <locInfo> element

   Yves: but everybody is happy about having an element?

   Christian: one concern:
   ... here we do not use attributes

   Felix: that's no issue since this is global usage

   Yves: accept the proposal?

   proposal 03 accepted

   proposal 04:

   Have an attribute @its:locInfoRef for localization information
   globally/locally

   Sebastian: URIs make it easy to refer to anything in the same
   document or a different document

   Christian: My concern is: if we allow pointers
   ... they might no longer be valid as some localization work has been
   done

   Yves: valid point

   Sebastian: saying "#somepoint" does not say what the starting point
   is

   Felix: that can be resolved if you make it clear in the spec
   ... but is this not a general XML problem?

   Yves: how is this useful for loc info?

   Sebastian: you could point to wikipedia

   Yves: we have the same mechanism with termref, so both should work
   the same way

   Richard: with termref, you point only to a term and to a
   termReference
   ... with locinfo, you only have localization info

   Felix: the implementations are the same: you identify s.t. as "term"
   or as "subject to locinfo", and add a reference to it

   Richard: could you point to the same node?

   Yves: that is only possible globally
   ... if we would have locinforef, we should have locinforefmap as
   well
   ... could we have locinforef in the spec for now?

   Richard: yes

   proposal 04 for now accepted

   Yves: now no. 05: mapping mechanism
   ... original idea was to provide a mapping for each data category
   ... the concern some of us had that you would have an extra
   mechanism in many places

   Sebastian: how do you deal if you want to have everything in one
   namespace? you would need to map everything
   ... we argued in Canne against this in verbosity
   ... I argued for clearness of implementation

   <scribe> ACTION: Felix to start the discussion on not having mapping
   for the translatability and the dir category on the mailing list;
   everybody please participate [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]

next face-to-face

   Yves: people who come please let me know

on the mapping discussion

   yves: need to continue that on friday

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Felix to start the discussion on not having mapping
   for the translatability and the dir category on the mailing list;
   everybody please participate [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
   [NEW] ACTION: put a note on the proposal for grouping data
   categories in next working draft [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: All to read and comment on RI's notes [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Christian and Felix need to update their result of
   conformance discussion in the spec. [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples
   how to use its:locInfoRef (decide on distinction of "alert" versus
   "description") [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Richard to describe an additional level of
   conformance for Ruby [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Tag set editors to integrate discussion result
   about bugs 2881,2,3 [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Yves to work on XHTML + ITS modularization
   [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
   [DONE] ACTION: All comment on Mandelieu 9 proposals ('agree' or
   'need discussion') [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
   [DROPPED] ACTION: Felix to update bugzilla with open issues.
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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Received on Thursday, 16 March 2006 02:09:21 UTC

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