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RE: On conformance

From: Lieske, Christian <christian.lieske@sap.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:25:35 +0100
Message-ID: <0F568FE519230641B5F84502E0979DD10492F0AB@dewdfe12.wdf.sap.corp>
To: "Felix Sasaki" <fsasaki@w3.org>
Cc: <public-i18n-its@w3.org>

Hi there,

I found the following on

Appendix D.Core Features Sets (Non Normative)

The OpenDocument specification does not specify which elements and
attributes conforming
application must, should, or may support. The intention behind this is
to ensure that the
OpenDocument specification can be used by as many implementations as
possible, even if
these applications do not support some or many of the elements and
attributes defined in this
specification. Viewer applications for instance may not support all
editing relates elements and
attributes (like change tracking), other application may support only
the content related elements
and attributes, but none of the style related ones.
Even typical office applications may only support a subset of the
elements and attributes defined
in this specification. They may for instance not support lists within
text boxes or may not support
some of the language related element and attributes. 

Best regards,

-----Original Message-----
From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 14:06
To: Lieske, Christian
Cc: public-i18n-its@w3.org
Subject: Re: On conformance

Hi Christian, all,

Lieske, Christian wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> Please find my comments below (starting with "CL>").
> Best regards,
> Christian 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-i18n-its-request@w3.org
> [mailto:public-i18n-its-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: Sonntag, 12. Februar 2006 06:51
> To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
> Subject: RE: On conformance
> Hi Christian, Felix, and all,
>> So I think you should provide all tests which you 
>> think which are necessary, not only the ones for 
>> "terminology". This might be a very complicated task,
>> *if* you assume a lot of conformance levels, and 
>> even conformance specific conformance criteria to a 
>> single data category.
> Our data categories are quite divers: Ruby as little do to with
> translatability for example. This means it probably make sense for
> the applications that will implement ITS to provide support for only
> some of the data categories.
> CL> Or only provide _limited_ support (cf. the discussion on
> insitu/dislocated).

sorry, this has nothing to do with conformance, but the terminology here
would now be local (in instance documents) versus global (with

> For example a translation tool would implement the translatability
> and localization information categories but completely
> ignore terminology.
> CL> I am not sure that all translation tools would do that.
>  Therefore I think we have to test the 6 data categories separately (I
> think <its:span> is something different
> and can be tested with along with all the in situ cases).
>>From the "rules location" viewpoint we have: in XML DTD, in XML
> in RELAX NG, external dislocated, internal dislocated, and
> in situ... 6 cases. In addition, I think it's important to also have
> test cases for each data category where all the different
> "rules locations" are combined. So 7 cases.
> This gives us the following matrix:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/#Summary
> Which is ... 42 cases overall (although there maybe a few cases less
> not all types of rules location apply to all data
> categories).
> I think it's important that we provide at least one standalone test
> for each of these combinations. It is quite a bit of work,
> but it is probably the only way to ensure ITS is sound. 
> As far as "processors" *compliance*. I think we don't have to define a
> level for each case. Maybe we can say that an application is
> ITS compliant when it implement sucessfully at least one of the data
> categories(?) and that it should state which one(s) with any
> compliance claim.
> CL> I like Yves' approach of distinguishing between test cases and
> conformance/compliance. From
> CL> my point of view test cases can help with the following:
> CL>
> CL> 1. verify that the framework adequately addresses an issue
> CL> 2. possibly help with the definition of conformance
> CL> 3. testing conformance
> CL>
> CL> I think that the design of the test suite (that is the collection
> test cases instrumented with
> CL> input, output, id etc.) which Yves has drafted is very promising.
> CL>
> CL> I am still not sure about the granularity of conformance we should
> be aiming at. 

I agree that it would be possible to disconnect the discussion on tests
from conformance. But IMO it would be good to relate the one to the
other as close as possible. Yves proposal to say "s.t. is conformance if
it implements successfully at least one data category" is a very direct
relation between tests and conformance.

Possible pros and
> CL> cons for a fine grained granularity could be the following:
> CL>
> CL> pro: may yield many conformant implementations since only a
> number
> CL> 	of features would have to be implemented and thus effort for
> implementation might be low

with the proposal from Yves to say "s.t. is conformance if it implements
successfully at least one data category", you would have the same
effect, without having the need for fine grained conformance levels.

> CL> cons: may yield confusion amongst tool users/buyers since they
> cannot easily know that a
> CL>	conformant tool really fits their i18n/l10n requirements
> CL>
> CL> One approach to come up with a more coarse grained granularity of
> course could
> CL> start from clustering/partioning features, and basing conformance
> clusters. Example:
> CL>
> CL> Definition for Cluster A
> CL>
> CL>	 - data categories 'ruby' and 'directionality'
> CL> 	 - only local rules
> CL>
> CL>  Conformance Clause
> CL>    
> CL>    - An implementation of this standard is profile-1 conformant if
> it implements all
> CL>      features defined in Cluster A

Could you make a suggestion what clusters you would suppose for ITS?

> CL>
> CL> This seems to be an approach taken by other standards (they seem
> use terms like
> CL> "level", or "profile"). CSS 1 from my understanding for example
> two clusters:
> CL> core features and extended features (see
> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1#css1-conformance).
> CL> XSL-FO has three (called "basic", "extended" and "complete"; see
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/slice8.html#conform)
> CL> It defines for each feature (objects and properties), whether a
> conformance level
> CL> requires its implementation or not (see
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/sliceB.html#FO-summary,
> CL> http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/sliceC.html#property-index).

looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/xsl/slice8.html#conform , I have the
feeling the XSL conformance is very close to what is currently in the
ITS draft. In XSL you have three levels basic, extended and complete,
which subsume each other. In the current ITS draft, you have two levels,
which subsume each other.

> CL>
> CL> Following this line of thinking, we would need to decide on two
> things with regard to conformance:
> CL>
> CL>	1. Do we go for several different types of conformance?
> CL>   2. How do we possibly partition data categories, support for
> selection mechanisms etc. to arrive at different types?

I would propose to go Yves path to say "s.t. is conformant if it
implements just one data category. This would be one level of
conformance, though.
In addition (or rather 'below' that), I would propose to say s.t. about
conformance of schemas, because we have to say s.t. to the audience
"schema developers". In the ITS draft, currently schema conformance is
mixed with data category conformance. I would propose to separate this.

- Felix

> We still have to decide if we want to allow processors that implement
> only in-situ rules to be compilant or not. We need to decide
> this soon.
> For the test cases, based on Felix and Christian's ideas, maybe we
> have something for each data category that look like this:
> 1. In schema
> 	1.1 XML DTD
> 	1.2 XML Schema
> 	1.3 RELAX NG
> 2. Dislocated
> 	2.2 External to the document
> 	2.3 Within the document
> 3. In situ
> 4. Combination of all cases
> For each of these lines we would have:
> - The description of the test. (With a reference to the clause in the
> specification).
> At least one test set that would have:
> - An "Input files" entry with the list of all the input files
> for example a source XML document and a document containing
> dislocated rules.
> - An "Expected Result" entry with a document hand-made (or at least
> hand-checked) that describes the expected output.
> - Zero, one or more result files generated from the various
> implementations we will have. (and hopefully will will have at least
> example of for each case).
> See the translatability data category for an example:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/#Trans_DislocatedExternal
> (I'm missing still the clause references)
> It would probably be good to have several test sets in some cases, for
> example; avec namespaces, without namespace, etc.
> In addition to decide if this is a good approach and how it can be
> improved, we should also maybe make the general layout easier to
> manipulate, for instance by having the Test Suite document broken down
> in several files (one per data category) so several people
> can work on different parts at the same time. Maybe the result
> should be integrated within the test suite document to make
> it easier to look at, etc.
> For the test implementation we should try to make them generic enough
> they can be used regardless of the input files.
> ...I am sure you have plenty of ideas.
> Cheers,
> -yves
Received on Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:26:07 UTC

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