W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-i18n-its@w3.org > January to March 2006

i18n ITS minutes 2006-02-01

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:27:15 +0900
To: "public-i18n-its@w3.org" <public-i18n-its@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.s4bvzpyux1753t@ibm-60d333fc0ec.mag.keio.ac.jp>

Hi all,

The minutes of yesterday's call are at

http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html

and below as text.

Cheers,

Felix


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                         i18n ITS working group

1 Feb 2006

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0052.html

Attendees

    Present
           Andrzej, Christian, Felix, Sebastian, Yves

    Regrets
           Diane, Richard

    Chair
           Yves

    Scribe
           Felix

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Action items
          2. [5]selection mechanism
          3. [6]other topics
      * [7]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Action items

    <scribe> ACTION: Felix to put up an agenda for the tech plenary f2f.
    (PENDING) [recorded in
    [8]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

    <scribe> ACTION: Yves to write examples of qualified and
    non-qualified vocabularies for bug
    [9]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719 (DONE)
    [recorded in
    [10]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]

       [9] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719

    <YvesS> [11]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719

      [11] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719

    Yves: the problem is:
    ... if we have dislocated ITS
    ... the XPath expression may or may not have prefixes
    ... depending on the prefixes, the XPath expression may work or not

    felix: a proposal:
    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0
    057.html

      [12]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0057.html

    <its:ns its:prefix="db"
    its:uri="[13]http://docbook.org/ns/docbook"">

      [13] http://docbook.org/ns/docbook

    felix: part of its:documentRules element
    ... you can have several elements of these, zero or more

    sr: we have to translate XPath first
    ... we have to export the namespace declaration

    <YvesS> ... SR: possible conflic issues.

    felix: what would you do if several documents

    sr: with XSLT, you could use the ns element as well

    Yves: what happens if you have a document without namespaces?

    felix: a possible solution: its:translateSelector="//db:p | //p

    yves: I would like to tackle both e.g. DocBook with namespaces and
    without

    SR: are you talking about processing a "read only" document?
    ... you might be forced to rewrite the document to one which has the
    document namespace (i.e. docbook 5)
    ... you would be mad to have to sets of rules for different versions
    of a format

    yves: we might have the problem with other formats which have
    sometimes namespace and sometimes not

    sr: what you can do in XSLT 2:
    ... specifying a default prefix
    ... one rule which defines "db" to be nothing, and one which says
    "db" is a namespace

    <scribe> ACTION: SR, Yves and Felix to test the usage of the <ns>
    element, to see if it is usefull for the next draft [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]

    <scribe> ACTION: Yves to explore constraint support in CSS and
    possibly contact a CSS guru. (PENDING) [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]

    <scribe> ACTION: All to look at parameters for the f2f around www
    conference or xtech. (DONE) [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]

    <scribe> ACTION: All to think about f2f at tech plenary and see if
    they can make it or not. (DONE) [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]

    Christian: I might not be able to come

    <scribe> ACTION: Andrzej to start an article about the relations
    between various standards. (ONGOING) [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]

    <scribe> ACTION: Christian and Felix to rephrase the conformance
    section (ONGOING) [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]

    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0
    091.html

      [20]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0091.html

    Christian: We made some progress
    ... we said "we want to say s.t. about schema conformance"
    ... on the other hand we want to say s.t. about processing
    application
    ... we agreed on that
    ... what I don't understand:
    ... I argued for a more fine grained distinction for schema
    conformance
    ... a more fine grained distinction might it easier to talk about
    specific types of conformance
    ... I looked at Ruby

    felix: I found out that ruby has no test suite

    christian: we may want to talk about two different types of
    processors
    ... non-interpreting and interpreting
    ... the former can read or write ITS markup
    ... the latter would act upon the semantics of ITS markup
    ... the motivation for this distinction is:
    ... it may become if we talk about very different types of
    applications

    felix: I would propose to have tests for our conformance levels
    ... it might be difficult if we abstract too much from the features
    to test the featues

    christian: how about support in an editor?
    ... e.g. in the open office suite?
    ... that allows authors to mark a piece of content
    ... with the ITS translate="no" flag

    <scribe> ACTION: Christian and Felix to provide examples for tests,
    and see if we can come up with a common set of conformance levels
    [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]

    <scribe> ACTION: Christian to write a non-normative section on
    selection, at the beginning of the scope section. (ONGOING)
    [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]

    Yves: you may want to wait, since we want to change things e.g. with
    in situ

selection mechanism

    Yves: we had a problem with conformance, e.g. an in situ translate
    attribute without translateSelector
    ... not having a selector would simplify a lot of things
    ... it makes it though a little bit less flexible
    ... e.g. if you want to override attribute information
    ... it would reduce the complexity

    Christian: an experience:
    ... we worked with an editor
    ... adding an additional attribute would be straightforward
    ... the implementation of ITS information which does not use in situ
    approach would be more complex?
    ... if you have distinctions between the different p elements, you
    end up with a lot of different documentRule elements
    ... impact on conformance: if we work with in situ
    ... we may see more users

    Yves: Christian is talking about people using an editor, right?

    Christian: right

    Yves: it is more on the user side of ITS?
    ... another issue I was thinking of: some documents may not allow
    attributes

    Felix: I am afraid that in situ selectors are not testable as a
    feature

    Christian: I compared this to CSS
    ... if I compare this to HTML: if there would be only a style
    element in HTML?

    Yves: you still would have the selector at the dislocated version

    Felix: in CSS, you have a section with a lot of selectors
    ... in the document, you use CSS without selectors

    Sebastian: It would not be possible to override an attribute in the
    instance
    ... but that is bad style anyway
    ... the implementation gets simpler without in situ use of selectors

    felix: selector attributes could be locally defined at the
    documentRule element, which is better for validation

    Sebastian: you can do anything with the dislocated selector
    ... if you have a rule at the top "translate every p"
    ... you don't want to say "translate no" at the backmatter

    felix: you could express that by the order of the documentRule
    elements

    sebastian: the fact that you can't do selectors in situ with CSS
    ... it could be a good selling point for us, if we can make it
    clear.

    yves: it has another advantage: XPath expressions which go to a
    parent element are bad, but could happen in the in situ case

    Andrzej: translate=no is a rare case
    ... the picture for XML based meta data files is:
    ... you get situation were you don't want to translate in given
    instances
    ... meta data configurations are straight forward
    ... in text based files, if you have to not translate s.t.
    ... in a given instance
    ... you would only do that in an instance basis

    Felix: XPath is testable dislocated better than in situ
    ... the draft is not difficult to change

    <scribe> ACTION: I will post a mail to say "that is the direction
    without selectors in situ we go" [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]

    <scribe> ACTION: SR, Yves and Felix to change their implementations
    to work only without in situ selectors [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]

    <scribe> ACTION: Everybody to follow new syntax (DONE) [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]

    <scribe> ACTION: Everybody to read the spec and comment on the spec
    until the publication date (ONGOING) [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]

    <scribe> ACTION: Owners of the modularizations to keep working on
    them. (ONGOING) [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]

    This is some start for xmlspec:

    [28]http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#xml
    spec

      [28]  
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#xmlspec

other topics

    Yves: the whole inline segmentation thing has to be discussed
    further

    <YvesS> That was a productive meeting. Thanks all.

    <YvesS> bye.

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Christian and Felix to provide examples for tests, and
    see if we can come up with a common set of conformance levels
    [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: I will post a mail to say "that is the direction
    without selectors in situ we go" [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]
    [NEW] ACTION: SR, Yves and Felix to change their implementations to
    work only without in situ selectors [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]
    [NEW] ACTION: SR, Yves and Felix to test the usage of the element,
    to see if it is usefull for the next draft [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]

    [PENDING] ACTION: Andrzej to start an article about the relations
    between various standards. [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Christian to write a non-normative section on
    selection, at the beginning of the scope section. [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Everybody to read the spec and comment on the spec
    until the publication date [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Felix to put up an agenda for the tech plenary
    f2f. [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Owners of the modularizations to keep working on
    them. [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Yves to explore constraint support in CSS and
    possibly contact a CSS guru. [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
    [DONE] ACTION: All to look at parameters for the f2f around www
    conference or xtech. [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
    [DONE] ACTION: All to think about f2f at tech plenary and see if
    they can make it or not. [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]
    [DONE] ACTION: Everybody to follow new syntax [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]
    [DONE] ACTION: Yves to write examples of qualified and non-qualified
    vocabularies for bug
    [42]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719 recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/02/01-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________

      [42] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2719


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [44]scribe.perl version 1.126
     ([45]CVS log)
     $Date: 2006/02/02 04:22:45 $

      [44] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [45] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Thursday, 2 February 2006 04:27:24 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 20:43:06 UTC