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Minutes ITS teleconf 2005-10-12

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:53:49 +0900
To: "public-i18n-its@w3.org" <public-i18n-its@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.sykfrzkkx1753t@ibm-60d333fc0ec.mag.keio.ac.jp>
Hi,

The minutes of the ITS teleconf 2005-10-12 are at

http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html

And attached to this mail.

Best,

Felix
   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                  i18n ITS wg

12 Oct 2005

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0008.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Andrzej, Christian, Felix, Richard, Sebastian, Yves

   Regrets
          Diane, Najib, Tim

   Chair
          Yves

   Scribe
          Felix

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Action items
         2. [6]discussions on Scoping (and Extensibility)
         3. [7]On extensibility
         4. [8]f2f preparation
         5. [9]other business
         6. [10]next meeting
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

     _________________________________________________________________

Action items

   <scribe> ACTION: CL to use ODD to specify the indicator of translatability
   implementation. (Waiting for progress on the ODD conversion) (pending)
   recorded in [12]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

   <scribe> ACTION: FS to ask W3C if there is a methodology for mapping
   existing / under development (done) [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

   <scribe> ACTION: FS to check inheritance for xml:lang (as part of his work
   on a wiki on xml:lang for the i18n core WG) (done) [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

   <YvesS>
   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0026.html

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0026.html

   <scribe> ACTION: FS to make proposals by mail for a shortcut for the
   namespace of the ITS specification Working Draft (done) [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

   <scribe> ACTION: SR to introduce to the working group the l10n / i18n
   aspects of the TEI (done) [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

   <YvesS> [18]http://www.tei-c.org/I18N/i18n-talk.pdf

     [18] http://www.tei-c.org/I18N/i18n-talk.pdf

   SR: I got useful comments from CL to put in tonight
   ... I need a prose version for that
   ... it will be presented at the annual members meeting of TEI in Bulgaria
   and for a workshop on TEI in Germany

   <scribe> ACTION: SR to put a comment on
   [19]http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements in the wiki (pending)
   recorded in [20]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action06]

     [19] http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements

   SR: still pending, work on odd desiderata from FS have more priority

   <YvesS>
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0038.html

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2005OctDec/0038.html

   <scribe> ACTION: YS to list possible constraints and values for them (done)
   recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action07]

   Yves: CL proposed to integrate white space constraints
   ... the container size constrained seems to be related to display
   ... but buffer length seems to be the valid constraint at our level

   SR: Why wouldn't you mandate char?

   Yves: Would like to do that, but
   ... if you have some restrictions from your programming language, that might
   not work

   <chriLi> What about sht. like a namespace-related "URI constraint"? We may
   have to say '[23]http://ww.y.com/de' may never be changed to
   '[24]http://ww.y.com/de'

     [23] http://ww.y.com/de'
     [24] http://ww.y.com/de'

   SR: combination of length and encoding might be difficult

   YS: very valid point
   ... how about white space, CL?

   CL: no, nothing more

   <chriLi> Correction: What about sht. like a namespace-related "URI
   constraint"? We may have to say 'xmlns="[25]http://ww.y.com/de"' may never
   be changed to 'xmlns="[26]http://ww.y.com/en"'

     [25] http://ww.y.com/de
     [26] http://ww.y.com/en

   CL: this is on a meta level
   ... maybe its related to indicator of translatability
   ... on the constraints again, I tried to check XLIFF again
   ... I did not find anything more - which is good

   <scribe> ACTION: YS to ask RI for techniques template (pending) [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action08]

   <scribe> ACTION: CL to post more notes on Scoping (done) [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action09]

discussions on Scoping (and Extensibility)

   <YvesS> [29]http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecScoping

     [29] http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecScoping

   YS: currently two main ideas
   ... one is to use translateYes and translateNo with XPath expressions
   ... or translate with various values and a separate scope attribute
   ... two main opinions: use translateYes / translateNo, or the @translate
   attribute
   ... we should decide soon, to be able to go to wd

   CL: this touches on all data categories we discuss
   ... e.g. also for ruby, term markup
   ... indicator of translatability is a particular problematic case
   ... because we have a different understanding what needs to be captured:
   ... we have to say "you have to do s.t. about this, and nothing about this"
   ... doing scoping by means of XPath, I found another argument to use
   translateYes and translateNo

   YS: how could we reach consensus?

   CL: a first part would be to say: the general approach is to have an
   attribute like @dir and a scope attribute like @dirScope
   ... the same works with @ruby and @rubyScope and other requirements
   ... the second question is what to do with translatability

   YS: explains the scope discussion to AZ

   example from Yves:

   <parent-of-e translate="yes" translateScope="e@a">

   <e translate="no" translateScope="." a="Review">456</e>

   </parent-of-e>

   translateScope="e/@a"

   YS: if you take the full document, it is possible to say different things
   about 2 attributes at the same element
   ... that would allow us to have different values

   CL: this looks elegant

   translateScope="../e/@a">

   scribe: I'm just wondering about the root element

   CL: should we take an action item about a root element case?

   YS: using XPath seems to be original

   <chriLi> We would need to look at two special case: root element with
   children, root element without children

   <scribe> ACTION: felix to summarize the discussion of the scope wiki, look
   at root elements with / without children, and if there are no more comments,
   to put it into odd [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action10]

   YS: the content of "." could be identical to translate="yes"

   CL: we added many things, not only translatability:

   <!ENTITY % scope

   "CDATA">

   <!ENTITY % itstagset

   "

   <!-- one of A or B -->

   <!-- start of A -->

   translate (yes | no) #IMPLIED

   translateNoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   <!-- end of A -->

   <!-- start of B -->

   translateYes %scope; #IMPLIED

   translateNo %scope; #IMPLIED

   <!-- end of B -->

   locinfo (yes) #IMPLIED

   locinfoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   isTerm (yes) #IMPLIED

   isTermScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   ruby (yes) #IMPLIED

   rubyScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   dir CDATA #IMPLIED

   dirScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   lingInfo CDATA #IMPLIED

   lingInfoScope %scope; #IMPLIED

   equiv CDATA #IMPLIED

   "

   >

   CL: should we put that into the first wd

   FS: I think it is a good idea

   YS: I think so too

   <YvesS> [31]http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecExtensibility

     [31] http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509SpecExtensibility

   <scribe> ACTION: felix to look at the other requirements which are mentioned
   in the scope wiki. If scope is accepted, put them into odd / xmlspec
   recorded in [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action11]

On extensibility

   CL: distinction between providing more values, or another namespace

   YS: that are two different things, yes
   ... the namespace approach has the advantage that it is easier to distinct
   between ITS and extensions

   SR: People can put in their own private namespaces, and we have no problem
   with that

   CL: let's look at the attribute "indicator of translatability"
   ... I wonder how ITS may be able to evolve if people need more than "yes"
   and "no"

   FS:Sperberg-McQueen proposes to give examples for extensibility, in
   different schema languages

   YS: is there a value of extensions like translate-extension?

   SR: it depends
   ... a general container like ITS other would be suitable maybe - is that
   your idea, CL?

   CL: I thought: do we see a need for extensibility?
   ... if yes, we should decide which mechanism we use

   SR: I like the attitude of Sperberg-McQueen (mentioned by FS) of giving
   examples

   AZ: the confusion comes from the real need for extensions for XLIFF
   ... with ITS, this is a different area

   CL: for many data categories, we already know that we don't need extension,
   e.g. bidi
   ... so what should we do? Just follow Sperberg-McQueen by giving examples?

   AZ: Yes

   FS: gives some examples for extension mechanisms in w3c wgs

   CL: we should give that into the wd? we don't have extensibility, but you
   could use e.g. namespaces

   <scribe> ACTION: put extensibility in the wd in the way discussed in this
   teleconf [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action12]

f2f preparation

   YS: how will be at the meeting

   FS: will leave on last day of f2f around noon or before?

   YS: NP

   CR: abingdon is the town
   ... close to Oxford

   <r12a> near Didcot

   we will have enough cars, I guess

   YS: put more information as soon as possible

other business

   CL: AZ, you gave a talk in France? Is there a presentation to share?

   AZ: Yes, it is in French
   ... will send a copy to the group
   ... I gave a similar presentation at xml 2004 in Washington

next meeting

   next week, same channel

   <GoutamSaha> Bye everybody

   <GoutamSaha> Bye

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: felix to look at the other requirements which are mentioned in
   the scope wiki. If scope is accepted, put them into odd / xmlspec [recorded
   in [34]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: felix to summarize the discussion of the scope wiki, look at
   root elements with / without children, and if there are no more comments, to
   put it into odd [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action10]
   [NEW] ACTION: put extensibility in the wd in the way discussed in this
   teleconf [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action12]

   [PENDING] ACTION: CL to use ODD to specify the indicator of translatability
   implementation. (Waiting for progress on the ODD conversion) [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: SR to put a comment on
   [38]http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements in the wiki recorded
   in [39]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: YS to ask RI for techniques template [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action08]

     [38] http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0509ReqNestedElements

   [DONE] ACTION: CL to post more notes on Scoping [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: FS to ask W3C if there is a methodology for mapping existing
   / under development [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
   [DONE] ACTION: FS to check inheritance for xml:lang (as part of his work on
   a wiki on xml:lang for the i18n core WG) [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: FS to make proposals by mail for a shortcut for the namespace
   of the ITS specification Working Draft [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
   [DONE] ACTION: SR to introduce to the working group the l10n / i18n aspects
   of the TEI [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
   [DONE] ACTION: YS to list possible constraints and values for them [recorded
   in [46]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/12-i18n-minutes.html#action07]

   [End of minutes]

     _________________________________________________________________


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