Re: its:idValue and xml:id

Hi Felix,

Thanks that was very helpful. The its:annotatorsRef is exactly what I need.

I guess I have to adjust my perception of ITS a little bit. Until now I saw
it as two more or less independent parts. The rules/annotating part
mechanism and the annotated document (XML+ITS markup) as the result of the
annotating process. But using its:annotatorsRef enables me to do what I
need.

Thanks again,
--Marc


On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:

> Hi Marc,
>
> sorry, some lengthy explanations below and a suggestion at the end.
>
> Am 03.07.13 14:17, schrieb Marc van Grootel:
>
>  Hi,
>>
>> I was working on some XSLT that adds ITS markup to an XML and was
>> wondering on how to explicitly add ID's that other generic XSLT can pick up
>> to process (e.g. a generic XML+ITS to XLIFF conversion step).
>>
>> In my case I'm not using the full power of ITS rules but rather use it to
>> make localization information explicit available on the elements. The XSLT
>> contains the rules in the form of templates. It will add @its:translate to
>> the translatable elements.
>>
>> Now when I look at how to provide an ID that a next step can pick up I
>> believe the spec wants me to add an @xml:id (8.14.2)
>>
>
> That is one way of making the ID information explicit, and, as you said,
> the preferrable way. See also the related test in the implementation report
> for ITS 2.0
> http://www.w3.org/**International/multilingualweb/**lt/drafts/its20/its20-
> **implementation-report.html#t-**idvalue2xml<http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20-implementation-report.html#t-idvalue2xml>
> and the statement in the spec
> http://www.w3.org/**International/multilingualweb/**
> lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#**idvalue-local<http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#idvalue-local>
>
> Think of this as CSS: you have two ways of providing a certain type of
> style
> style attribute (= ITS local, in your case xml:id) <span
> style="color:red;">
> style element (= ITS global, in your case it would be the idValueRule)
> <style...> span {color: red;} </style>
>
>
>
>> Because I like to separate the processing that does the ITS annotation
>> from the XLIFF preparation as much as possible this @xml:id in my opinion
>> breaks this separation. A generic post processing step cannot simply throw
>> out all ITS namespaced stuff to get back the original XML.
>>
>
> Correct. This is like in the CSS case: when a browser has set the color of
> a "span" element, it doesn't know anymore whether that was accomplished via
> a style element or attribute.
>
>
>  In case of added xml:id attributes it has no way of knowing if this
>> wasn't already present in the original or if it was added by the ITS
>> annotation step.
>>
>> I always thought that this was valid use case of ITS. That you could have
>> an XML+ITS document where all ITS information is made explicit on the
>> elements itself and no ITS related processing (like rule interpretation via
>> its:idValue) was needed to use it. Hence I rather expected to see an
>> @its:id to provide localization IDs.
>>
>
> For ITS data categories that provide local markup you can choose to use
> only local markup and then do the roundtripping you describe. For data
> categories like ID Value I would argue that there is a good reason not to
> have local markup: ITS aims at being as less invasive as possible. So
> inventing a local "its:id" attribute instead of xml:id would break that
> approach, and put a burden on non ITS, generic XML tools that understand
> xml:id or HTML id. E.g. if you would have @its:id there would need to be an
> additional step for viewing HTML content in the browser. With re-using HTML
> id in ITS 2.0, that is not needed.
>
>
>
>> I haven't thought this through for other ITS datacategories and rules but
>> for simple stuff such as @its:translate, @its:locNote etc.. I can work like
>> that but not for IDs.
>>
>
> You want to identify the step in which Id information has been added,
> right? ITS tool annotation
> http://www.w3.org/**International/multilingualweb/**
> lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#**its-tool-annotation<http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its-tool-annotation>
> could help here:
> <p its:annotatorsRef="id-value|**myTool" xml:id="p1">...</p>
> Of course this is more markup than one its:id attribute. But it has the
> advantage that you can both fulfil your scenario (= strip ITS 2.0 markup
> out) and re-use existing markup (= xml:id).
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Felix
>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> --Marc
>>
>
>


-- 
--Marc