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[minutes] i18n teleconference 2011-08-10

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 17:13:59 +0100
Message-ID: <4E42AE47.1080401@w3.org>
To: "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html




         Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference

10 Aug 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Aug/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           matial, Addison_Phillips, Richard, Aharon, andrewc, kojiishi

    Regrets
           Felix

    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           Addison Phillips

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Minutes and Agenda review
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]HTML5 bidi
          5. [9]HTML <rb>
          6. [10]AOB?
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Minutes and Agenda review

    aharon: bidi update on html5
    ... lists and images
    ... validity of unicode controls in html

Action Items

    Dump charmod-norm and add disclaimer paragraph, dates, etc. so that
    we can publish an interim working draft

    Change 512 to 1024 in the charset declaration article

    close ACTION-59

    <trackbot> ACTION-59 Figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the
    html5 LC closed

    close ACTION-62

    <trackbot> ACTION-62 Write to HTML5 chairs and ask for extension to
    complete our comments targetting mid-August (??) closed

Info Share

HTML5 bidi

    aharon: dir=auto...
    ... the implementation results in webkit
    ... I saw that it wasn't doing everything
    ... oversight in the specification
    ... concentrating on text nodes
    ... and has no meaning for inputs
    ... and no meaning for text-area
    ... opened bug on that
    ... and good response from bidi-aware folks
    ... no editor response yet
    ... hope Ian gets to it
    ... concerned that it will be overlooked
    ... particular issue with lists
    ... the CSS3 lists module
    ... has changes for bidi, but still in flux
    ... still in draft
    ... the problem is that it has an implication for html5
    ... because CSS2 default is obviously bad for bidi but cannot change
    in CSS3
    ... so HTML5 needs to specify in its default stylesheet the correct
    CSS3 items for bidi as default...
    ... but CSS3 can't be referenced due to its draft status :-(
    ... fantasai advises "don't worry"
    ... images...
    ... wanted a new feature for image flipping
    ... was in WD of CSS3 images
    ... but cut because no implementations
    ... but it was only in the draft for 3 months
    ... that feature will be moved to CSS4

    addison: protest to css?

    <scribe> ACTION: Addison: send email to style@ advising that we want
    bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Send email to style@ advising that we
    want bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images [on Addison Phillips - due
    2011-08-17].

    <scribe> ACTION: aharon: send addison details on CSS3 image
    mirroring [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Send addison details on CSS3 image
    mirroring [on Aharon Lanin - due 2011-08-17].

    aharon: unicode formatting characters in HTML
    ... not an action from us
    ... some features can be handled by the unicode controls (some folks
    suggested)
    ... I expained why this is bad
    ... filed bug to disallow unbalanced controls
    ... recently Ian put that into spec
    ... so: within an attribute such as title, formatting characters
    must be balanced and within all text nodes of an element
    ... problem is that the language also makes 2 problematic statements
    ... 1) characters allows except when unbalanced
    ... and adds note that "as a matter of convenience" can use dir,
    bdi, etc.
    ... my problem is first that we should permit but discourage
    ... discouraged period
    ... markup is not "matter of convenience" but the preferred manner
    ... reopened bug

    <aharon> [14]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11234

      [14] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11234

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors the
    changes requested [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors
    the changes requested [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17].

HTML <rb> (i18n-issue-26)

    <kojiishi> [16]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10830

      [16] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10830

    Addison: should we reopen <rb> tag

    richard: everyone in world wants this
    ... but ian is not swayed to provide this tag
    ... think this stance is not good for backwards compatibility
    ... and since IE9 and other browsers support
    ... asking for it to be optional, not for complete change to ruby
    model

    <aharon> Can anyone summarize the reasons that ian is rejecting it?

    <r12a> aharon, i think that's actually the problem - we can't see
    why

    If this is just asking for <rb>, not for the feature that makes <rb>
    useful, then this is definitely a WONTFIX. Legacy IE browsers
    ignored <rb> in practice. In the model supported by the spec, the
    element provides no useful purpose.

    richard: non-IE browsers didn't ignore <rb>

    koji: number of <rb> cases cited by myself and fantasai

    aharon: needs a bit more, since Ian feels ruby can be provided using
    other markup
    ... the thing to stress that <rb> serves useful purpose

    richard: reopen and ask they address why our arguments are not good
    enough

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: reopen 10830 for WG indicating that we are
    not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility, and
    current implementation [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Reopen 10830 for WG indicating that
    we are not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility,
    and current implementation [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-17].

    richard: propose the text to the WG first

    addison: good idea

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: propose text for reopening 10830 to WG
    before actually opening it [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Propose text for reopening 10830 to
    WG before actually opening it [on Addison Phillips - due
    2011-08-17].

    koji: another bug about <rtc>

    <kojiishi> [19]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13113

      [19] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13113

    (all): need to read this

    scribe: include next week

    richard: fantasai suggested that jukugo ruby could be done via
    styling and I seem to remember thinking along the same lines at one
    point - also it may be possible to do ruby on both sides using
    nesting of ruby markup
    ... so maybe complex ruby isn't needed
    ... but I haven't yet been able to grind through the nitty-gritty
    details to confirm that.
    ... any progress on that front?

    koji: no new information
    ... but ruby on both sides works better with complex
    ... although can be done
    ... but html wg is negative about complex ruby
    ... could live without

    richard: solution is nesting ruby rather than complex
    ... tried and it isn't as bad as it could be
    ... complex is more than we needed, so would be happy if we could
    avoid
    ... but haven't checked if that is always possible

    koji: hoping to make css-ruby spec progress
    ... hope to verify that all use cases are covered
    ... but haven't implemented yet

AOB?

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: add to bug 11234 that I18N WG favors the
    changes requested [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: propose text for reopening 10830 to WG before
    actually opening it [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: reopen 10830 for WG indicating that we are
    not satisfied, citing the usefulness, backward compatibility, and
    current implementation [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Addison: send email to style@ advising that we want
    bidi image mirroring in CSS3 images [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: aharon: send addison details on CSS3 image mirroring
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2011/08/10-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]




-- 
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Activity Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/


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Received on Wednesday, 10 August 2011 16:14:32 GMT

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