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[minutes] Internationalization WG telecon 2011-07-27

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:10:29 +0100
Message-ID: <4E304685.50701@w3.org>
To: "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>

http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html



Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference

27 Jul 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jul/0013.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Richard, Addison, Mati, Felix, Gwyneth

    Regrets
    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           Addison Phillips

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Minutes and Agenda review
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]Media Resources
          5. [9]HTML5 REVIEW
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Minutes and Agenda review

Action Items

    close ACTION-46

    <trackbot> ACTION-46 Dump charmod-norm and add disclaimer paragraph,
    dates, etc. so that we can publish an interim working draft closed

    close ACTION-45

    <trackbot> ACTION-45 Publish qa-personal-names for wide review
    closed

    reopen ACTION-46

    <trackbot> ACTION-46 Dump charmod-norm and add disclaimer paragraph,
    dates, etc. so that we can publish an interim working draft
    re-opened

    so close on action 56

    Change 512 to 1024 in the charset declaration article

    Figure out how to keep alive open bugs for the html5 LC

Info Share

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: send addison pisa conference materials as
    draft for IUC presentation [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Send addison pisa conference
    materials as draft for IUC presentation [on Richard Ishida - due
    2011-08-03].

Media Resources

    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JulSep/
    0022.html

      [12] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JulSep/0022.html

    [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20110712/

      [13] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20110712/

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: raise MediaResources issues in tracker and
    forward to relevant WG [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Raise MediaResources issues in
    tracker and forward to relevant WG [on Addison Phillips - due
    2011-08-03].

HTML5 REVIEW

    richard: polyglot
    ...

    <r12a> [15]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/4

      [15] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/4

    <r12a> [16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/58

      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/58

    <r12a> ISSUE-58

    since UTF-16 is no longer allowed in polyglot documents, should
    close

    close ISSUE-58

    <trackbot> ISSUE-58 In-document declarations always useful closed

    [17]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/60

      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/60

    ISSUE-60

    <r12a> ISSUE-60: Omit the either/or list

    <trackbot> ISSUE-60 Omit the either/or list notes added

    rewritten, so no longer issue

    close ISSUE-60

    <trackbot> ISSUE-60 Omit the either/or list closed

    Mention lang and xml:lang

    ISSUE-61

    richard: done now. <meta> content language now non-conforming

    close ISSUE-61

    <trackbot> ISSUE-61 Mention lang and xml:lang closed

    Case requirements

    ISSUE-62

    richard: done, considerably rewritten

    close ISSUE-62

    <trackbot> ISSUE-62 Case requirements closed

    richard: went through the bidi list
    ... three remaining ones

    [18]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/5

      [18] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/5

    ISSUE-26

    Please add support for rb

    ISSUE-29

    ruby code samples

    addison: added to prep?

    richard: no, reopened

    ISSUE-30

    Allow utf-16 meta encoding declarations

    richard: on-going
    ... resolved "wontfix" by hixie
    ... good idea to reopen

    addison: UTF-16 allowed in HTML documents but can't declare it

    richard: BOM used to declare

    addison: reopen it!

    richard to open bug

    ISSUE-32

    rlo and lro attribute values

    richard: "punt"

    matial: don't see a lot of use for it; nice to have

    close it

    close ISSUE-32

    <trackbot> ISSUE-32 rlo and lro attribute values closed

    ISSUE-34

    bdo element doesn't leave rendering up to presentation layer

    close in favor of new issue

    <r12a> [19]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/34

      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/34

    close ISSUE-34

    <trackbot> ISSUE-34 bdo element doesn't leave rendering up to
    presentation layer closed

    [20]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/10

      [20] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/10

    [21]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/12

      [21] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/12

    ISSUE-76

    Clarify 'preferred name' for encodings

    [22]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/76

      [22] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/76

    richard: when ian says "preferred name" means preferred name in
    registry if it exists or name at top of entry
    ... the former is only 22 items
    ... link is missing here

    comment accepted

    ISSUE-76: comment accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-76 Clarify 'preferred name' for encodings notes
    added

    [23]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/11

      [23] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/11

    ISSUE-72

    BOM as preferred encoding declaration

    richard: section that says how to identify encoding
    ... one option is BOM and it says "preferred"
    ... later there is a note that says we (our WG) recommends the
    <meta> element
    ... (and I started editing our article recommending against BOM)

    addison: BOM is evil :-)

    ISSUE-72: accepted for Polyglot LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-72 BOM as preferred encoding declaration notes
    added

    ISSUE-73

    Case sensitivity of lang

    richard: lang in list of attributes that must be lowercase only
    ... becuase attributes handled case insensitive?

    <r12a> [24]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/73

      [24] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/73

    addison: language tags themselves are case insensitive

    richard: it's xml:lang that matters to xml processors

    ISSUE-73: accepted for Polyglot LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-73 Case sensitivity of lang notes added

    ISSUE-74

    Remove Content-Language meta from polyglot

    [25]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/74

      [25] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/74

    richard: all this wording about fallbacks
    ... so content-language is non-conforming in HTML5 and thus can't be
    used in polyglot
    ... so need to remove from polyglot
    ... 1. can't use C-L meta in polyglot documents (since
    non-conforming)
    ... 2. therefore remove mention of it from fallback description
    because irrelevant

    ISSUE-74: accepted for Polyglot LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-74 Remove Content-Language meta from polyglot notes
    added

    ISSUE-75

    Section 11 is blank

    non-I18N

    personal/editorial comment

    <r12a> [26]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/75

      [26] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/75

    <r12a> ISSUE-137

    <r12a> [27]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/137

      [27] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/137

    html5 bidi support should be normative

    richard: ian to add normative section on bidi rendering

    [28]http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/10

      [28] http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/10

    ISSUE-77

    HTTP and defaulting to UTF-16LE

    <r12a> [29]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/77

      [29] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/77

    If the HTTP header declares the file to be UTF-16BE, which I believe
    it can, and in which case a BOM should *not* be used, then I think
    that this would not be true. If the HTTP header declares the file to
    be UTF-16, then there must be a BOM, so I assume that this is a
    recovery mechanism if someone does declare UTF-16 in HTTP but omits
    the BOM. I'd think that some kind of error message would be in order
    though.

    addison: seems straightforward

    ISSUE-77: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-77 HTTP and defaulting to UTF-16LE notes added

    [30]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/78

      [30] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/78

    ISSUE-78

    The spellcheck attribute currently is limited to user-edited text.
    It would be useful to have some way of identifying content that
    should not be spellchecked in an editor or by an automated
    spellchecking service. It would seem most intuitive to use the same
    attribute for this, but more carefully distinguish between the case
    where the user agent is dealing with user editable text and
    non-user-editable text, if necessary.

    addison: so a processing instruction for editing tools??
    ... i18n issue? or general?

    felix: borderline between ITS and I18N and general
    ... think it's important

    ISSUE-78: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-78 Spellcheck should work in editors notes added

    ISSUE-79

    Multilingual q quote rendering

    [31]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/79

      [31] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/79

    It would be useful to add a note to this section to remind readers
    that the default characters used for quotation marks are set in the
    default stylesheet[$1\47], and will vary depending on the user's
    locale and language preferences. But that users may need to override
    the defaults for text in a particular language, and that they can do
    so using the quotes property in CSS
    ([32]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#quotes-specify).

      [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#quotes-specify).

    addison: think this is a good comment

    richard: there is a note that UA's should take language into account
    ... language of the UA

    addison: but that's wrong... should be language of content

    gwyneth: does it take into account spacing (such as french use of
    NBSP)
    ... CSS page doesn't indicate spaces

    ISSUE-79: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-79 Multilingual q quote rendering notes added

    ISSUE-80

    Default rules for the quotes property

    [33]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/80

      [33] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/80

    <r12a>
    [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/rendering.html#punctuation-and-decora
    tions

      [34] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/rendering.html#punctuation-and-decorations

    "Rules setting the 'quotes' property appropriately for the locales
    and languages understood by the user are expected to be present."
    How are the locales and languages understood by the user determined?
    Is this related to the Accept-Language settings of the browser? I'm
    assuming that the requirement here is to provide a single default
    only per browser installation, rather than to provide defaults for
    text in various languages (which would be a nice plus). If

    ISSUE-80: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-80 Default rules for the quotes property notes
    added

    ISSUE-80: should apply rules based on the language of document

    <trackbot> ISSUE-80 Default rules for the quotes property notes
    added

    quote shapes based on language of document except potentially using
    browser language or A-L as an ultimate fallback

    ISSUE-80: quote shapes based on language of document except
    potentially using browser language or A-L as an ultimate fallback

    <trackbot> ISSUE-80 Default rules for the quotes property notes
    added

    <r12a> [35]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/80

      [35] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/80

    ISSUE-81

    Strip other line-terminators?

    [36]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/81

      [36] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/81

    Where it says: -- When a user agent is to strip line breaks from a
    string, the user agent must remove any U+000A LINE FEED (LF) and
    U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) characters from that string. -- Should
    other line-terminators also be included here?

    ISSUE-81: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-81 Strip other line-terminators? notes added

    <r12a> [37]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/81

      [37] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/81

    ISSUE-82

    Non-ASCII enumerated values

    [38]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/82

      [38] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/82

    I realize that the set of "enumerated values" in HTML5 consists
    strictly of ASCII strings. However, there is no syntactical
    requirement that this be true. Non-ASCII values could be included
    into an enumerated value set, in which case, the "ACSII
    case-insensitive" match may be incomplete. Instead of using "ASCII
    case-insensitive", could Unicode case-folded matching be defined
    instead? This is stable, well-defined, and a strict superset of the
    ASCII case?

    addison: somewhat pedantic, may not be worth raising?

    ISSUE-82: rejected for LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-82 Non-ASCII enumerated values notes added

    close ISSUE-82

    <trackbot> ISSUE-82 Non-ASCII enumerated values closed

    ISSUE-83

    Note about why Gregorian only used

    [39]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/83

      [39] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/83

    The section describes date values using strictly the Gregorian
    calendar. As long as the values are strictly internal (as a means of
    representing incremental or floating time values, cf. our note
    Working With Time Zones), this doesn't represent a barrier to the
    use of other calendric systems. Please include a note indicating
    this so that international users understand why Gregorian is used
    here.

    ISSUE-83: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-83 Note about why Gregorian only used notes added

    ISSUE-84

    Representing BCE months

    [40]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/84

      [40] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/84

    The 'months' definition only handles dates from the (proleptic)
    Gregorian year 0 in the common era going forwards. There is no way
    to represent BCE dates. Should there be?

    month="1903-10"

    gwyneth: need an "era" field?
    ... need to explain this comment more

    ISSUE-84: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-84 Representing BCE months notes added

    ISSUE-85

    Health warning about converting date to/from incremental time

    The 'date' definition contains no time zone information. It is thus
    a floating date value and a health warning should be included about
    converting it to/from incremental time values.

    date="2011-06-28T14:34:55.007"

    ISSUE-85: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-85 Health warning about converting date to/from
    incremental time notes added

    ISSUE-86

    Option for 1 digit hour

    ISSUE-85: mention efforts on JavaScript inclusion of zone info

    <trackbot> ISSUE-85 Health warning about converting date to/from
    incremental time notes added

    [41]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/86

      [41] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/86

    In parsing a 'time' value, the rule for the hours section is: "Two
    digits, representing hour, in the range 0 ≤ hour ≤ 23". Should this
    optionally allow only one digit?

    richard: actually tripped over this

    time="0:00:00"

    ISSUE-86: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-86 Option for 1 digit hour notes added

    ISSUE-86: many users will make this error and the result will be an
    error rather than a time

    <trackbot> ISSUE-86 Option for 1 digit hour notes added

    ISSUE-87

    Leap seconds

    [42]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/87

      [42] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/87

    There is a note disallowing the representation of leap seconds. This
    poses a potential problem for applications sensitive to leap
    seconds. Should the values be allowed, even if later processing does
    not deal with it?

    <Gwyneth> The International Earth Rotation And Reference Systems
    Service (IERS) Earth Orientation Center is taking comments on
    whether to get rid of leap seconds.
    [43]http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=questionnaire

      [43] http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=questionnaire

    datetime="1980-01-01T00:00:60"

    ISSUE-87: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-87 Leap seconds notes added

    ISSUE-88

    Local/floating date and time

    This defines a 'global date and time', which is the same as a 'local
    date and time', only with a time zone representation. I propose
    changing the 'local' value to use the term 'floating' (since it is
    not truly local). The term 'global' could remain. I would also
    suggest adding a reference to w3.org/TR/timezone (our note) to help
    users understand when to use which type.

    ISSUE-88: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-88 Local/floating date and time notes added

    ISSUE-89

    Time zones and local dates and times

    <Gwyneth> I need to head out to another meeting. Sorry.

    [44]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/89

      [44] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/89

    This section defines 'local dates and times', which is a
    date-and-time value *without* a time zone. This type seems
    problematic because it does not deal with the time zone problem. Its
    relationship to either floating or incremental times is completely
    arbitrary. See also Issue 88.

    addison: so have more understanding... modeling JS Date(). There are
    use cases like airline schedules where useful. Question is about
    giving good guidance to authors.
    ... call for a health warning related to time zones?

    ISSUE-89: update to call for health warning on use of local dates
    and times

    <trackbot> ISSUE-89 Time zones and local dates and times notes added

    ISSUE-89: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-89 Time zones and local dates and times notes added

    ISSUE-91

    15 minute time zones

    [45]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/91

      [45] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/91

    The note on time zone offsets says in part: "...and the minutes
    component of offsets of actual time zones is always either 00, 30,
    or 45." Really this is arbitrary and prone to change. The total
    range of time zones also changes from time to time. I would suggest
    inserting a "at the time this document was published" caveat such
    that innocent readers are not caught by surprise by a new 15 mintue
    time zone offset or by more monkey business surrounding the IDL.

    ISSUE-91: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-91 15 minute time zones notes added

    ISSUE-92

    Time zone offset vs. time zone

    [46]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/92

      [46] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/92

    This section gives a number of examples that equate time zone offset
    with an actual time zone. For example: --
    "1979-10-14T12:00:00.001-04:00" One millisecond after noon on
    October 14th 1979, in the time zone in use on the east coast of the
    USA during daylight saving time. -- It should be made clear that a
    zone offset is not the same thing as a time zone. Mention should be
    made of the need for separate time zone information when working
    with real date and t

    ISSUE-92: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-92 Time zone offset vs. time zone notes added

    ISSUE-93

    [47]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/93

      [47] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/93

    implicit conversion to incremental time

    Rule 9 in the parsing of a valid global date and time is: "Let time
    be the moment in time at year year, month month, day day, hours
    hour, minute minute, second second, subtracting timezonehours hours
    and timezoneminutes minutes. That moment in time is a moment in the
    UTC time zone.". It is not clear what type 'time' is. It appears to
    be a field-based time value, but it this intended as an implicit
    conversion to incremental time?

    ISSUE-93: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-93 Implicit conversion to incremental time? notes
    added

    ISSUE-94

    [48]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/94

      [48] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/94

    Allowing culturally specific week rules

    This section defines 'weeks'. The rules for weeks and week counting
    are culturally linked, but these rules define week start as always
    Monday. The rule for determining the "first week" that it includes
    the first Thursday (again, a culturally variant value). Shouldn't
    there be provision for allowing culturally specific week rules be
    applied?

    <matial> definitely

    ISSUE-94: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-94 Allowing culturally specific week rules notes
    added

    ISSUE-95

    [49]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/95

      [49] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/95

    Limitations and defaults for accept-charset

    The "accept-charset" field is said to "gives the character encodings
    that are to be used for the submission". Is this a real limitation
    on the encodings used? Is there a default value (presumably the page
    encoding)?

    [50]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-form-element

      [50] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-form-element

    present for backward compatibility?

    ISSUE-95: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-95 Limitations and defaults for accept-charset
    notes added

    ISSUE-96

    Allowing for EAI

    The email address validation scheme quotes ABNF from RFC 5322 and
    doesn't appear to allow addresses that are IDNA. While EAI is kinda
    slow moving, shouldn't HTML5 allow for it?

    <r12a> [51]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11579

      [51] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11579

    <r12a> Support for internationalized e-mail addresses

    ISSUE-96: add this issue to HTML5 bug 11579

    <trackbot> ISSUE-96 Allowing for EAI notes added

    ISSUE-97

    Allowing a page to request a given locale

    [52]http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/97

      [52] http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/97

    -- The format shown to the user is independent of the format used
    for form submission. Browsers are encouraged to use user interfaces
    that present dates and times according to the conventions of the
    user's preferred locale. -- Should we encourage the use of the
    *page's* preferred locale? It would be best if we could provide a
    way for page authors to create a consistent user experience. Work on
    the ECMAScript I18N extension may eventually help here, but only

    matial: provide authors ability to override user's preferences, but
    user's preferences should work in absense of an override

    ISSUE-97: accepted for HTML5 LC

    <trackbot> ISSUE-97 Allowing a page to request a given locale notes
    added

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: write to HTML5 chairs and ask for
    extension to complete our comments targetting mid-August (??)
    [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Write to HTML5 chairs and ask for
    extension to complete our comments targetting mid-August (??) [on
    Addison Phillips - due 2011-08-03].

    close ISSUE-128

    <trackbot> ISSUE-128 Why is content-language non-conforming? closed

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: file accepted as accepted and unreviewed
    comments as provisional [recorded in
    [54]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - File accepted as accepted and
    unreviewed comments as provisional [on Addison Phillips - due
    2011-08-03].

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: file accepted as accepted and unreviewed
    comments as provisional [recorded in
    [55]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: raise MediaResources issues in tracker and
    forward to relevant WG [recorded in
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: write to HTML5 chairs and ask for extension
    to complete our comments targetting mid-August (??) [recorded in
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: send addison pisa conference materials as
    draft for IUC presentation [recorded in
    [58]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/27-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]






-- 
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Activity Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/


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