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RE: [1.2T-LC] i18n comment 6: Direction and bidi-override attributes (ISSUE-2107)

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:33:24 -0000
To: "'Doug Schepers'" <schepers@w3.org>
Cc: <www-svg@w3.org>, <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, <ori@w3.org>
Message-ID: <004001c93aa4$d97d39c0$8c77ad40$@org>

> From: Doug Schepers [mailto:schepers@w3.org]
> Sent: 23 October 2008 10:56
> To: ishida@w3.org
> Cc: www-svg@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org; ori@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [1.2T-LC] i18n comment 6: Direction and bidi-override attributes
> (ISSUE-2107)
> 
> Hi, Richard, I18N-
> 
> ishida@w3.org wrote (on 10/10/08 9:43 PM):
> > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-SVGMobile12-20080915/
> >
> > Comment 6 At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0810-svg-tiny/
> > Editorial/substantive: S Tracked by: RI
> >
> > Location in reviewed document: 10.4
> > [httphttp://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/text.html#TextElement]
> >
> > Comment: The direction and bidi-override attributes are needed to
> > establish a context so that the bidi algorithm can work. My
> > understanding is that this was omitted unintentionally and will be
> > put back in. This comment is based on the latest editor's copy of the
> > document (ie. more recent than the version most of these comments
> > apply to.)
> 
> That's correct.  We've added them back in.

Thanks for adding this back to http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/text.html#RelationshipWithBiDirectionality

Note that I still don't see direction or unicode-bidi in the element table at http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/elementTable.html 

I assume that this is because they are 'properties', and that the green tick in the third column of elements such as svg, text, etc. means that any property can be used with those elements.

> 
> 
> > "In most cases, the bidirectional algorithm from [UNICODE] produces
> > the desired result automatically, and overriding this algorithm
> > properly is usually quite complex. Therefore, in most cases, authors
> > are discouraged from assigning values to these properties."
> >
> > Actually, it's only in simple cases that you get the desired result
> > automatically. For example, just put a period or other punctuation at
> > the end of any Arabic or Hebrew text, and it will appear in the wrong
> > place (at the right side) unless you have set the directional
> > context, since the default is LTR. You could say that in *many* cases
> > the bidi algorithm produces the result automatically, in which case
> > it is not necessary to use the markup, but you can't say that in most
> > cases authors are discouraged from using the attributes. Usually,
> > however, it is not complex to use these properties, either. If you're
> > working in Arabic, you'll most likely need to set the direction to
> > RTL most of the time.
> 
> How about this:
> [[
> In many cases, the bidirectional algorithm from [UNICODE] produces the
> desired result automatically, and overriding this algorithm properly is
> usually quite complex. Therefore, in many cases, such as when using
> Western scripts, authors are discouraged from assigning values to these
> properties.  When using right-to-left languages, it is recommended that
> these properties be set appropriately.
> ]]

Hmm.  It may appear complex if you don't know what you are doing, but it's not really that bad for people who need to work with rtl scripts all the time.

How about this:
[[
In many cases, the bidirectional algorithm from [UNICODE] produces the desired result automatically, and in such cases the author does not need to use these properties. For other cases, when using right-to-left languages, it may sufficient to add the direction property to the svg element, and allow that direction to inherit to all text elements.
]]


> 
> 
> > Perhaps it would be helpful to provide an example of the most
> > straightforward case, ie. unicode-bidi="embed" direction="rtl", that
> > people can cut&paste.
> 
> That's a great idea.  We will add a Hebrew and/or Arabic example.

I don't see this yet. Is that an oversight? 


> 
> 
> > What *would really* be helpful, would be the possibility of declaring
> > the direction at the top of the document, ie. in the svg element, and
> > allowing it to cascade from there to all text elements. In *that*
> > case, you are much less likely to need to set the properties on each
> > text element, when working in a right-to-left script. (And it will
> > save a lot of typing for the poor Middle Eastern authors.)
> 
> This is indeed the case, because we inherit inheritance from CSS.  How
> about we add an explanatory note for authors, explaining that this can
> be done?

I think this is a very good idea.  See my proposed text above - maybe that is enough?  Note also my assumption about applicability of properties like direction and unicode-bidi to elements such as svg and text etc.

RI
Received on Thursday, 30 October 2008 15:33:34 GMT

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