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RE: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 5: H56 source text

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:01:39 -0000
To: "'Richard Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, "'Loretta Guarino Reid'" <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Cc: <public-comments-wcag20@w3.org>, <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Message-ID: <009301c890fd$c60a5270$521ef750$@org>

Hello Loretta,

After recent changes, the i18n WG is now satisfied with the response to this
comment.

Many thanks,
RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/blog/
http://rishida.net/

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-i18n-core-request@w3.org
[mailto:public-i18n-core-request@w3.org]
> On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: 17 December 2007 17:19
> To: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'
> Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 5: H56 source text
> 
> 
> Hello Loretta,
> 
> There are still some significant issues with the text in H34 and H56. I
will
> list them and suggest fixes below.
> 
> 
> ============================================
> 
> H34
> 
> [a] In the first para of Example 1 there is what I suspect is an
accidental
> sentence "Inserting a Unicode right-to-left mark (via the HTML character
> entity &#8207;) after the exclamation mark positions it correctly."  This
> sentence is repeated (appropriately) later, but in this position creates
> confusion about the example that immediately follows.  I recommend you
just
> delete that sentence. (It wasn't in my original suggested text at
> http://www.w3.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html which you seem
to
> have used.)
> 
> [b] You have the text "(in this case via the HTML character entity
> &#8207;)".  This introduces more than one problem:
> 
> [b1] &#8207; is not a character entity (that would be &rlm;), it is a
> numeric character reference (NCR)
> 
> [b2] looking at the source I don't see any evidence of an NCR or entity,
so
> others may also find this misleading (possibly caused during XSLT
processing
> of this document)
> 
> [b3] &#8207; is a decimal NCR; the Character Model recommends the use of
> hex-based NCRs, ie. in this case &#x200F; (see
> http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/#C045).  This would also make it easier for
> readers to relate to the description further up the page that shows hex
> rather than decimal notation.
> 
> In my proposed rewrite I simply omitted that parenthetical remark to avoid
> problems. That would be my recommendation here.  It is described in the
text
> anyway.
> 
> [c] This is down to us.  We recently revisited ascii-only examples of bidi
> text in the i18n WG, and we came up with a new proposal.  We now plan to
use
> an English translation for Arabic/Hebrew text, with characters running
rtl,
> and to upper case rtl text and lowercase ltr text. In short, I would
suggest
> that you replace
> 
> The title is "biula riiacm Hatfm!" in Arabic.
> 
> with
> 
> the title is "HCTIWS SDRADNATS BEW!" in arabic.
> 
> and do similar for the example with the exclamation mark to the left.
> 
> 
> =============================================
> 
> H56
> 
> [d] The <span dir="ltr"> markup is not needed to correctly render the
"W3C"
> text and so should not be used. I doubt you need the language markup in
this
> case, either, since W3C is W3C in Hebrew. So I recommend you simply remove
> the span around W3C. There is also a question about the appropriate
ordering
> of the text in the quote in the source - see the proposed text I mention
in
> [e] for what I think is a better approach.
> 
> [e] The example of the expected result actually comes out incorrectly,
> because you didn't include the markup you show in the code example!  ;-)
> 
> To correct both of these issues, I propose you pick up the text I have
added
> to http://www.w3.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html for you as a
> replacement for Example 1 of H56.
> 
> Note that you will need to pick up the source text for the examples
> containing Hebrew text on that page, since two of them contain spans with
> dir='rlt' to make the quote look as intended.
> 
> ===================================================
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> RI
> 
> 
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/blog/
> http://rishida.net/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com]
> > Sent: 11 December 2007 23:28
> > To: Richard Ishida
> > Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 5: H56 source text
> >
> > We have updated  H34 per your suggestions. We have updated
> > the example in H56 to show the entire title within the rtl
> > span, with "W3C"
> > enclosed in a nested span with dir="ltr". Thank you for your help.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> > Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> > Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact
> >
> > On behalf of the WCAG Working Group
> >
> > On Nov 16, 2007 10:00 AM, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the example shown will produce exactly the wrong
> > > result.  The ", W3C" text must appear inside the span element to
> > > produce the expected result.
> > >
> > > If you change the example, however, you will run into the
> > problem of
> > > how to show source text in a sensible fashion, since the hebrew is
> > > running right to left, and W3C must run left to right and
> > be positioned to the left.
> > >
> > > I suggest that you describe the source text rather than
> > show it. Eg.
> > > "... o the left of (i.e. after) the Hebrew text. This can
> > be achieved
> > > by enclosing the quote in a span, to which the attribute
> > code dir="rtl" has been added."
> > >
> > > I would also be tempted to show before and after examples,
> > like those
> > > I suggested for
> > >
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2007OctDec/0135.h
> > > tml If you want to do that, and need me to help provide
> > examples and
> > > visually-ordered ascii, let me know.  (I didn't do it just in case,
> > > because it takes a while to create them.)
> > >
> > > RI
> > >
> > >
> > > ============
> > > Richard Ishida
> > > Internationalization Lead
> > > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> > >
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > > http://rishida.net/blog/
> > > http://rishida.net/
> > >
> >
Received on Friday, 28 March 2008 18:01:55 GMT

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