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Re: ACTION A-Redmond05-01: timezone health warning

From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:42:06 -0700
Message-ID: <4328C35E.3070609@icu-project.org>
To: Addison Phillips <addison.phillips@quest.com>
CC: Jim Melton <jim.melton@acm.org>, public-i18n-core@w3.org

I don't disagree with your point, just the current wording!

Mark

Addison Phillips wrote:
> (laughing) Okay, I'll buy that, I guess... but most people's birthdates occur far enough into the past to be divorced conceptually from a specific point on Earth. That is no one uses their birth *time* in a real application, except by accident! When asked for your birthday, do you think about what day it would have been in the city where you're being asked at the time?
> 
> Zone affected operations can occur ("is it currently my birthday in France") that require conversions, but the algorithm for that involves getting the current time in France and determining the year-month-day and comparing to my birth date's zone independent fields. The time zone I was born in is irrelevant to that calculation. Developers make the mistake of ignoring this in reverse all the time, which is the whole point of this. 
> 
> Here is my little Java fragment from this morning expanded to show the problem (which is the point of the Note to begin with):
> 
>    Calendar franceCal = GregorianCalendar.getInstance(
>       TimeZone.getTimeZone("Europe/Paris"), Locale.FRANCE);
>    int month = franceCal.get(Calendar.MONTH);
>    int day = franceCal.get(Calendar.DATE);
> 
>    // date turns into a computer time, using an
>    //    implicit time zone (generally local time
>    //    but dependent on the JDBC driver in this 
>    //    case).
>    Date birthdate = resultset.getDate("birthdate");
>    franceCal.setTime(birthdate);
> 
>    // and I go on to get bad results unless the database
>    //    driver returned Europe/Paris time by happenstance:
>    int birthmonth = franceCal.get(Calendar.MONTH);
>    int birthday = franceCal.get(Calendar.DATE);
>    if (month != birthmonth || day != birthday) {
>        // not my birthday: we get here (or not)
>        // depending on whether the coercion above
>        // correctly overlaps Europe/Paris, which
>        // depends in turn on the implicit time zone
>    } else {
>        // it's my birthday
>    }
> 
> Addison
> 
> Addison P. Phillips
> Globalization Architect, Quest Software
> Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group
> 
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture. 
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org]
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:05 AM
>>To: Jim Melton
>>Cc: Addison Phillips; ashok.malhotra@oracle.com; Paul Cotton; w3c-xsl-
>>query@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: ACTION A-Redmond05-01: timezone health warning
>>
>>That's not my point. The text says "a logical event divorced from a
>>particular location on the Earth". The wording is too strong, since my
>>birthday is *directly* dependent on the particular location where I was
>>born; had I been born at exactly the same point in time in Tokyo, my
>>birthday would have been the 14th. So the terminology "divorced from" is
>>completely wrong.
>>
>>I think that it can be reworded to make the point that you are trying
>>to, but it has to be reworded.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>Jim Melton wrote:
>>
>>>Mark,
>>>
>>>First, a slightly belated happy birthday!
>>>
>>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but 19:32 on September 13 (anywhere
>>>in the USA, but I don't know the time zone in which you were born) is
>>>either 10:32, 11:32, 12:32, or 13:32 on September 14 in Tokyo.  I doubt
>>>that, if you happened to be in Tokyo this week, that you would celebrate
>>>your birthday on September 14, even though that would allow you to do so
>>>at exactly n years from your astronomical birth time.  You're pretty
>>>likely, statistically speaking, to celebrate your birthday in Tokyo on
>>>13 September, just as you would do if you were in San Jose, Denver, or
>>>New York.  No?
>>>
>>>Hope this helps!
>>>   Jim
>>>
>>>At 9/13/2005 11:54 AM, Mark Davis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Note: someone in IBM objected to the statement:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>One application for this type of representation is for values that
>>>>
>>>>are time zone independent, representing a logical event divorced from
>>>>a particular location on the Earth. For example, a person's birth date
>>>>is independent of time zone.
>>>>
>>>>He has a certain point. My birth date is not really disconnected,
>>>>since it is based on the time zone where I was born. For example, I
>>>>was born at 7:32 PT on Sept 13 (and for those who like puzzles, my age
>>>>today in hex is the transposition of my name in decimal).
>>>>
>>>>Should we use a different example or slightly different wording?
>>>>
>>>>Mark
>>>>
>>>>Addison Phillips wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dear Ashok,
>>>>>Thanks for this update and the changes, which look fine. We took an
>>>>>action in our meeting today to reduce the Wiki to Note format and
>>>>>request publication as a Note ASAP. You should see the first
>>>>>transition request next week.
>>>>>Addison
>>>>>Addison P. Phillips
>>>>>Globalization Architect, Quest Software
>>>>>Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group
>>>>>Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>It is an architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Ashok Malhotra [mailto:ashok.malhotra@oracle.com]
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:44 AM
>>>>>>To: Addison Phillips; Paul Cotton
>>>>>>Cc: w3c-xsl-query@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
>>>>>>Subject: RE: ACTION A-Redmond05-01: timezone health warning
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The XML Query and the XSL WGs decided that the text on the Wiki page
>>>>>>was acceptable for publication as a note as long as a couple of
>>
>>changes
>>
>>>>>>were made.  I have made the changes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Can you publish the material as a note?  Please inform us when that
>>
>>is
>>
>>>>>>done
>>>>>>and we will add the appropriate reference from the F&O.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All the best, Ashok
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com]
>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:49 AM
>>>>>>>To: Paul Cotton; ashok.malhotra@oracle.com
>>>>>>>Cc: w3c-xsl-query@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
>>>>>>>Subject: RE: ACTION A-Redmond05-01: timezone health warning
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I had an action item to follow up this week with Ashok. I
>>>>>>>believe we are done with our editing homework. The question
>>>>>>>is what form the health warning should take in your document.
>>>>>>>Our text is slightly long.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We want to suggest that we publish our document as a Note and
>>>>>>>that you include a reference to it in your document.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The document itself is currently located in the Wiki:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://esw.w3.org/topic/i18nFAQTimeZone#preview
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Please let us know if you have particular concerns with the
>>>>>>>content or if you prefer a different course of action for
>>>>>>>including material from it in yours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Addison
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Addison P. Phillips
>>>>>>>Globalization Architect, Quest Software
>>>>>>>Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>>>It is an architecture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: Paul Cotton [mailto:pcotton@microsoft.com]
>>>>>>>>Sent: 2005?8?31? 20:55
>>>>>>>>To: ashok.malhotra@oracle.com; Addison Phillips
>>>>>>>>Cc: w3c-xsl-query@w3.org
>>>>>>>>Subject: ACTION A-Redmond05-01: timezone health warning
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>ACTION A-Redmond05-01 Ashok will work with Addison to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>develop text
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>for the timezone health warning.  ETA end of August.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Is the text for the health warning ready?  If it is can one of you
>>>>>>>>please reply to this message with the proposed text or a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>pointer to it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>/paulc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada
>>>>>>>>17 Eleanor Drive, Nepean, Ontario K2E 6A3
>>>>>>>>Tel: (613) 225-5445 Fax: (425) 936-7329
>>
>>mailto:pcotton@microsoft.com
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>========================================================================
>>>Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL)     Phone: +1.801.942.0144
>>>  Co-Chair, W3C XML Query WG; F&O (etc.) editor    Fax : +1.801.942.3345
>>>Oracle Corporation        Oracle Email: jim dot melton at oracle dot com
>>>1930 Viscounti Drive      Standards email: jim dot melton at acm dot org
>>>Sandy, UT 84093-1063 USA          Personal email: jim at melton dot name
>>>========================================================================
>>>=  Facts are facts.   But any opinions expressed are the opinions      =
>>>=  only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody   =
>>>=  else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand.  =
>>>========================================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
> 
Received on Thursday, 15 September 2005 00:42:24 GMT

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