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[I18N Core] Teleconference Notes 2005-02-01

From: Addison Phillips [wM] <aphillips@webmethods.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:46:23 -0800
To: <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Message-ID: <PNEHIBAMBMLHDMJDDFLHEELFJCAA.aphillips@webmethods.com>

Attendees: Attendees were Richard, Fran├žois, Addison (chair, scribe), Martin, Mary
Regrets: Tex
----

Accumulated Actions:

 AP: follow up on possibility of a phone for Tech Plenary
 AP: follow up with Jeremy 
 AP: ping CSS and HTML for shared time at Tech Plen 
 AP: revise message and look at it again. 
----
Agenda:

<apphillips> 1. Action Items (5 minutes)  
<apphillips> 2. Announcements (5 minutes)  
<apphillips> 3. XHTML 2.0 LC Comments (20 minutes)  
<apphillips> 4. Locale and Language Identifiers-- getting started (15 minutes)      
<apphillips> 4. SVG (+CSS, +XSL) line breaking (5 minutes)  
<apphillips> 5. Status Report: CharMod (5 minutes)  
<apphillips> 6. Other (TBD) 

Session Start (irc.w3.org:#i18n): Tue Feb 01 13:56:27 2005
<apphillips> addenda reference: (Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html 

<apphillips> -- [Housekeeping]
<apphillips> RI: MD to process FY's application 
<apphillips> MD(done) 
<apphillips> --  [Action Item Review]
<apphillips> PENDING ACTION ITEMS
All: be sure to sign up again. Contact Richard or Martin if you have problems locating or tormenting your AC Rep  
<apphillips> AP: Update Radar Chart  (not done)
<apphillips> AP: Send list of current outstanding reviews   (not done)
<apphillips> MD: talk to Masayasu about his comment  
  MD did talk to Masayasu, but couldn't remember what the content/payload was supposed to be.

<apphillips> RI: study #43 (see telecon notes) and propose comments  (done)
<apphillips> RI: Update XHTML 2.0 comments and deliver (thanks Richard) (done)  
     (Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2005JanMar/0005.html)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2005JanMar/0005.html 
     RI has updated the XHTML comments 

<apphillips> AP: Compose and forward to internal list response to SVG comments. (done) 
     (discussion later in the meeting)
     addenda reference: (Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html 

<apphillips> --- [Announcements]

<apphillips> IRI spec is now out and announced on the home page? 
<apphillips> it's on the home page and there was much rejoicing 

Tech Plenary
<apphillips> AP: follow up on possibility of a phone 
<apphillips> AP: follow up with Jeremy 
<apphillips> --- [XHTML 2.0 comments]
<apphillips>     Our comments: (Link: http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-i18n-review.html)http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-i18n-review.html  
<apphillips>     - discuss remaining points and ratify comments  
<apphillips>     - discuss whether we should mandate xml:lang on html, and if so, decide what to do for multilingual documents  
<apphillips>     - discuss the possibility of meeting with CSS and HTML folks during the Tech Plen to discuss default behaviour for quote marks (see comment #25).  
<apphillips>     - discuss possible reaction by HTML WG 
<apphillips> RI: any concerns? 
<apphillips> hreflang? 
<apphillips> RI: Steven Pemberton says hreflang is not intended to declare lang of target, only for Accept-Language header.
<apphillips> (so text is misleading) 
<apphillips> #35 
<apphillips> request that they change the name of the attribute's name to acceptLang or similar because it represents a change in meaning 

<apphillips> considering mandating xml:lang on the HTML element:
<apphillips> is "MUL" okay? 
<apphillips> is "" okay? 
<apphillips> MD: is making it mandatory the right choice? 
<apphillips> MD: favored empty value 
<apphillips> (over MUL) 
<apphillips> AP +1 
<apphillips> (playing catch up): two questions which are independent 
<apphillips> 1. should require 
<apphillips> 2. what to put for multiple language texts
<apphillips> FY: allowing empty will achieve nothing 
<apphillips> AP: it makes sense to make it visible 
<apphillips> RI: also make recommendations for editing tools 
<apphillips> (easier with a required element) 
<apphillips> AP: all natural language text spans are in exactly one language 
<apphillips> (may contain spans) 
thought experiments:
<apphillips> xml:lang="en,fr"
<apphillips> Content-Language:en, fr 
<apphillips> <meta property="language" value="en,fr" /> 
<apphillips> MUL-hant-CN 

<apphillips> the empty string addresses multilingual documents 
<apphillips> RI: require the attribute 
<apphillips> FY: only gives us increased visibility, no practical effect 
<apphillips> FY: tools must implement it. 
<apphillips> MD: propose it 
<apphillips> (see what reaction is) 
<apphillips> let's do it. 
<apphillips> adopted:
<apphillips> We think XHTML should require xml:lang on the HTML element, allow an empty value, with the empty value is preferred for multiple language documents (wrap spans) 
<apphillips> --- [<q> element]
<apphillips> CSS or type quotes in manually be default 
<apphillips> <q> element 
<apphillips> comes with own quote? 
<apphillips> plain text should carry all semantics 
<apphillips> (says FY) 
<apphillips> thus the text should contain the quotes 
<r12a> this is comment #25
<apphillips> MD: main reason <q> failed was that q element was already extant and didn't work 
<apphillips> (so folks avoided it) 
<apphillips> MD: XHTML 2 may want it as block or inline. 
<apphillips> (might want different behavior) 
<apphillips> RI: translateability requires saving the sense of the item too 
<apphillips> should coordinate with CSS and HTML on this issue 
<apphillips> need to have a group discussion to be successful at resolving 
<apphillips> AP: ping CSS and HTML for shared time at Tech Plen 
<apphillips> --- 
<Zakim> +Mary; got it
--- [SVG response]
<apphillips> <apphillips> addenda reference: (Link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2005Jan/0017.html  
<apphillips> MD: change the title on the email before sending 
<apphillips> (too formal) 
<apphillips> did we get the line breaking correct 
<apphillips> (my version or theirs) 
<apphillips> dealing with tailoring 
<apphillips> need examples, flip chart, etc. to demo at tech plenary 
<apphillips> AP: look over the text again before responding 
<apphillips> MD: need summary (we think you have it this way, here are the issues...) 
<apphillips> will aid comprehension if we have a worked example 
<apphillips> FY: look in the UTRs 
<apphillips> I thought we stated somewhere (but possibly overlooked) that some operations  
<apphillips> on some languages require code, data structures, dictionaries or other  
<apphillips> approaches to do some of the operations necessary for that language. To  
<apphillips> achieve the best possible (most natural for that language) performance may  
<apphillips> require an implementation to use facilities or capabilities in the local  
<apphillips> environment and not specified directly in the SVG standard.  
<apphillips>   
<apphillips> The problem with soft hyphenation and with line breaking is the same. In  
<apphillips> some languages or scripts it is possible to do it algorithmically, but not  
<apphillips> in all languages or scripts and not the same way in all languages or scripts  
<apphillips> that require "something more."  
<apphillips>   
<apphillips> So our opinion is that SVG's goal of providing an option that produces  
<apphillips> deterministic line breaking is a good, worthwhile, justifiable goal and this  
<apphillips> requires choosing an algorithm. We just believe that this option should (a)  
<apphillips> not be the default and (b) be augmented where possible by language-sensitive  
<apphillips> processing that is at least as good as the algorithm. 
<apphillips> RI: the additional attributes are described in CSS text module 
<apphillips> (could reference those) 
<apphillips> UAX #14 is good 
<apphillips> Additional capabilities are good 
<Zakim> -fyergeau
<apphillips> AP: revise message and look at it again. 
<apphillips> separate deterministic view from non-deterministic 
<apphillips> otherwise too much confusion results 
<apphillips> --- [Fin]

<Zakim> I18N_WG(core tf)5:00PM has ended
<Zakim> Attendees were Ishida, [IPcaller], fyergeau, apphillips, Martin, [IBM], Mary

Session Close (#i18n): Tue Feb 01 17:21:22 2005

Addison P. Phillips
Director, Globalization Architecture
http://www.webMethods.com

Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group
http://www.w3.org/International

Internationalization is an architecture. 
It is not a feature.
Received on Thursday, 3 February 2005 23:51:56 GMT

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