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Re: Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:19:17 +0000
Message-ID: <5138CC15.6050605@w3.org>
To: 董福興 Bobby Tung <bobbytung@wanderer.tw>
CC: MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org, www International <www-international@w3.org>
Hi Bobby,

In the Unicode Standard it says "In horizontal interlineation, the 
Bopomofo is generally placed above the corresponding Han character(s); 
tone marks, if present, appear at the end of each syllabic group of 
Bopomofo characters."  Although I know that it is also possible to have 
the tone marks (except the 5th) appear above the bopomofo characters in 
horizontal ruby, this confirmed my expectation that the canonical order 
of the characters for plain text would see all tone marks appear after 
the syllable.

It is important to standardise the order of code points to maximise the 
likelihood of matching and collation, etc. The actual position of the 
glyphs when displayed can be significantly different from the order in 
many scripts.

I don't think we should determine the order of characters in storage 
according to the display in ruby scenarios if the order in non-ruby 
contexts is different - we should rely on the application to position 
things correctly (which it has to do for the other tone marks anyway).

My question is really trying to get at what the general practice is for 
the 5th tone mark in zhuyin fuhao in all contexts, since I think that 
standardised ordering is more important than ease of display.  Are you 
saying that people always, in all contexts, type the 5th tone mark 
before the syllable?

I guess I should probably also check out the Unicode lists for 
information too.

Cheers,
RI



On 07/03/2013 16:10, 董福興 Bobby Tung wrote:
> I think this order make sense for both human read and machine read.
> .For human read:
> 「˙」should be known before first syllable, 「ˊˇˋ」should be put last as pronounce decision.
> .For machine read:
> Because the 「˙」is on the top when Bopomofo writing vertically, We don't need extra effort to let it show correctly.
>
> Bobby Tung
>
> Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> 於 2013/3/7 下午11:55 寫道:
>
>> Thanks for the quick reply. If you were writing bopomofo out horizontally in plain text (i know that's not common), would you also put that tone marker before the syllable it refers to, or did you do so in the markup just so that the application would make it look right?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> RI
>>
>>
>> On 07/03/2013 15:51, 董福興 Bobby Tung wrote:
>>> Mr. Ishida
>>>
>>> Because this tone maker「˙」always appear on the top of Bopomofo, due to the pronunciation. So in plain text, it should be first one appear in the row. And others「ˊˇˋ」should be last.
>>>
>>> Bobby Tung
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> 於 2013/3/7 下午11:41 寫道:
>>>
>>>> Btw, I noticed what I'd like to think is a typo in the example, but I'm worried that it's actually a substantive error.
>>>>
>>>> In the 6th and 7th lines of rb+rp+rt+rb the tone mark (02D9 DOT ABOVE) appears before the zhuyin text. I think that the correct location is after the zhuyin, like the other tone marks.
>>>>
>>>> Do you know whether it appears there to enable correct positioning of the ruby, or because that's where users expect it to appear in plain text?
>>>>
>>>> RI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/03/2013 23:39, MURATA Makoto wrote:
>>>>> Richard,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bopomofo ruby is missing.  Is it possible to incorporate
>>>>> Bobby's example?  Here goes.
>>>>>
>>>>> <ruby>
>>>>> 左<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄗㄨㄛˇ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 邊<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄅㄧㄢ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 一<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄧ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 隻<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄓ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 貓<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄇㄠ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 喵<rp>(</rp><rt>˙ㄇㄧㄠ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 喵<rp>(</rp><rt>˙ㄇㄧㄠ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> 叫<rp>(</rp><rt>ㄐㄧㄠˋ</rt><rp>)</rp>
>>>>> </ruby>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Makoto
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/3/1 Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>:
>>>>>> If you have any comments on the document below, please send to the
>>>>>> www-international and public-i18n-cjk *before Thursday*.  On Thursday the
>>>>>> i18n WG would like to approve the publication of the document, so that it
>>>>>> can be published as a Working Group Note during the following week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> RI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/02/2013 13:36, Richard Ishida wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have updated this editor's draft with a view to publishing as a WG
>>>>>>> Note so that it can be referenced as background material by the HTML5
>>>>>>> spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I simplified the headings, and added Appendix A, which is a slightly
>>>>>>> updated copy of http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/
>>>>>>> (which was moved to the W3C server).  Various other edits are change
>>>>>>> marked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RI
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Richard Ishida, W3C
>>>>>> http://rishida.net/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard Ishida, W3C
>>>> http://rishida.net/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Richard Ishida, W3C
>> http://rishida.net/
>
>


-- 
Richard Ishida, W3C
http://rishida.net/
Received on Thursday, 7 March 2013 17:19:49 GMT

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