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RE: Examples of double-sided ruby (was RE: Feedback for rb from html5j.org (was RE: HTML5 and ruby

From: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:47:21 -0500
To: "public-i18n-cjk@w3.org" <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A592E245B36A8949BDB0A302B375FB4E0D3297D265@MAILR001.mail.lan>
I wrote a script to scan Aozora Bunko files and found that 0.16% of them have double-sided ruby. By simple multiplication, we can guess that about 102 books with double-sided ruby are published every year.

Put on the wiki[1].

[1] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Rb#Real_Examples


-----Original Message-----
From: Koji Ishii [mailto:kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp] 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 12:01 AM
To: public-i18n-cjk@w3.org
Subject: RE: Examples of double-sided ruby (was RE: Feedback for rb from html5j.org (was RE: HTML5 and ruby

I'm pretty surprised by the number of responses I've got. The MLs I posted are technical MLs and I usually don't get this number of responses.

Got a couple of scans for:
> 11. One pointed out that there are a lot of examples in school text for social studies and histories.
http://www.katsumi.co.jp/blog/2009/09/post_1132.html

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/keito_fuwafuwa/49032897.html

These are pictures of school text books for Japanese histories.

And adding one more interesting example:

12. Harry Potter uses double-sided ruby for subtitles of incantations http://fontworks.co.jp/font/knowledge/

Scroll down to picture 4: http://fontworks.co.jp/font/knowledge/image/caption_cont02_img02.gif

The upper ruby shows the sound Harry Potter spoke, while the lower shows the reading of the meaning.


-----Original Message-----
From: Koji Ishii [mailto:kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 3:14 AM
To: public-i18n-cjk@w3.org
Subject: Examples of double-sided ruby (was RE: Feedback for rb from html5j.org (was RE: HTML5 and ruby

Changing the subject and adding a few more:

8. <http://epub-spec-discussions.googlegroups.com/attach/747b2ffa2a01928e/ryougawa_rubi.jpg?gda=r9Kvx0YAAACsBXcPvoVkqY3lXFpgETNlYyqZw0JIkgXeOOpb-J2SE5Zt1ZMP0jJ-Cw1JSy59YfK1Q5L708GJdOdYRVixv9nDE-Ea7GxYMt0t6nY0uV5FIQ&view=1&part=2>
A professional printer provided this example from one of his past work.

9. http://iphonereader.seesaa.net/article/226179098.html

An article about Aozora Bunko[3] readers, which shows double-sided ruby correctly.

10. http://d.hatena.ne.jp/t1mannen/20110513

An article that explains a school law established in 1872.

11. One pointed out that there are a lot of examples in school text for social studies and histories.

-----Original Message-----
From: Koji Ishii [mailto:kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp]
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:02 AM
To: public-i18n-cjk@w3.org
Subject: RE: Feedback for rb from html5j.org (was RE: HTML5 and ruby

> From: fantasai [mailto:fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net]
> On 01/21/2012 11:50 AM, Koji Ishii wrote:
> > One guy said that double-sided ruby is used more than most people would expect.
> Kanji/reading/English is one use case. The other case is when to put 
> ruby for the pseudo-Chinese reading (On-yomi in Japanese) and Japanese 
> reading (Kun-yomi in
> Japanese.) He wonders why HTML5 doesn't have rb to express 
> double-sided ruby and strongly wishes it back.
> 
> Hi Koji,
> If you could collect examples showing that double-sided ruby is more 
> common than expected, I think that would help a lot. Hixie asked me 
> for examples, but I was only able to provide one, and he didn't find it acceptable.

Thanks for a wonderful suggestion.

I asked at the ML and here are what I got from html5j.org[1] and public-html-ig-jp@w3.org[2].

1. http://klibredb.lib.kanagawa-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10487/3712/1/kana-12-5-0009.pdf

Double-sided ruby in title (2nd page.) Page 13 (printed page number 164) has some more.

2. http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000129/files/694_23250.html

This is a publication from Aozora Bunko[3]. Its original data is written in Aozora-format, which supports double-sided ruby. The page above is converted to HTML. Since HTML currently does not support double-sided ruby, the converter currently converts double-sided ruby to a special annotation text in the format of "[#「ruby-base」の左に「ruby-text」のルビ]". You can find this markup within the page above. Aozora Bunko has more examples that has this annotation, another one is: http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000908/files/51377_39744.html


3. http://www.lian.com/TANAKA/comhosei/print/photo/pp00016.jpg

A sample of Kanbun (old Chinese document annotated for Japanese readers).

4. http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1426219624

It's a Q&A site, the question is about how to layout Kanbun, and its best answer teaches how to enter double-sided ruby using Ichitaro, one of the most popular word processors in Japan.

5. One mentioned Japanese study references use double-sided ruby often. Haven't got scans yet.

6. One said he remember he saw double-sided ruby in a Manga, but can't remember its title.

7. One said it's widely used in Japanese history research papers, because the reading of ancient words only found in written materials were not determined and there are more than one way to read them.

I'll post further if I can get more samples, or scans of 5-7.

[1] (Japanese) http://groups.google.com/group/html5-developers-jp/browse_thread/thread/e17119e94c726961?hl=ja

[2] (Japanese) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2012Jan/thread.html

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aozora_bunko


Regards,
Koji
Received on Thursday, 2 February 2012 18:51:28 GMT

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