Re: EPUB requirements and options

On 2010/09/24, at 3:16, Richard Ishida wrote:

> [forwarded on behalf of Makoto Murata]
>
> ... I am the coordinator of the Enhanced Global Language
> Support sub-group of the IDPF EPUB 3.0 WG.  The requirement list
> is available at
>

Enhanced Global Language Support = EGLS

We have an IRC conference this morning. We talked a lot about Ruby.  
Here's the IRC log FYI, I might bring some issues to www-style later:


2nd IRC conference of the EGLS sub-group

Date: 2010-09-24
Time: 00:00GMT - 01:30 GMT
Attendees: wen-hsuan, vwong, Vincent, TommyLee, ShuTanabe,  
Ryoji_Akimoto,
                  Phobos, MURATA, murakami, Mei-Li, Kyoji, kojiishi,
                 kennyw3c, fantasai, ChoChin, BradyDuga,


08:45 *MURATA join (MURATA!~makoto@z213002.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
08:45 *Names #epub: MURATA TommyLee mikew3c kennyw3c
08:47 [MURATA] Agenda for  today: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/agenda.txt
08:48 [MURATA] Kenny, the first topic is ranking.  Please report the  
current status.
08:50 [kennyw3c] MURATA: No update (no one sent me mails since las  
week). I would like to update the wiki if I have access.
08:50 [kennyw3c] s/las/last.
08:52 [kennyw3c] MURATA: Can you update the wiki for the A/B/C ranking?
08:53 [MURATA] Yes, I can.  If you have nothing to report, we can skip  
it from the agenda.
08:53 [MURATA] Please send me the latest ranking info.  I will update  
the requirements list wiki.
08:55 *Phobos join (Phobos!~phobos@60-250-4-155.HINET-IP.hinet.net)
08:57 [kennyw3c] MURATA: Yes, you can skip it. The ranking is in the  
spreadsheet I shred with you already.
08:57 [kennyw3c] Google Docs
09:00 *ShuTanabe join (ShuTanabe!~ShuTanabe@pw126207180238.51.tss.panda-world.ne.jp 
)
09:01 *Ryoji_Akimoto join (Ryoji_Akimoto!~chatzilla@EM114-48-210-163.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp 
)
09:01 *wen-hsuan join (wen-hsuan!~wen-hsuan@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:02 *murakami join (murakami!~murakami@KD118154209003.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp 
)
09:02 *kennyw3c waves to murakami-san
09:02 *kojiishi join (kojiishi!~kojiishi@fnttkyo008001.tkyo.fnt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp 
)
09:02 [murakami] good morning!
09:03 *vwong join (vwong!~yaaic@124.217.154.247)
09:04 [MURATA] Good morning, everybody.
09:04 [kennyw3c] murakami: Are you reviewing CSS3 Text today as well?  
I wish I had joined the meeting yesterday.
09:04 [MURATA] Let's start.
09:04 [kennyw3c] Good morning, MURATA-san.
09:04 [MURATA] Today's agenda is http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/agenda.txt
09:05 [kojiishi] Good morning, everyone
09:05 [Phobos] Good morning, everyone
09:05 [murakami] I'm now with kojiishi.
09:05 [TommyLee] morning everyone
09:05 [MURATA] vwong, could I have your full name?
09:05 [Ryoji_Akimoto] Good morning, all!
09:06 [vwong] morning, i am vincent wong from astri
09:06 [murakami] Elika(w3c csswg) will join us.
09:06 [ShuTanabe] Good morning!
09:06 [wen-hsuan] Good Morning
09:06 [MURATA] Hello, Vincent.
09:07 [MURATA] Fantasai, Murakami-san, and Ishii-san are now working  
very hard in Japan for creating another draft of CSS3 text layout and  
CSS3 text
09:07 [MURATA] The agenda is available at http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/agenda.txt
09:07 *BradyDuga join (BradyDuga!~duga@adsl-99-30-179-102.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net 
)
09:07 [MURATA] Anything to add?
09:07 [MURATA] Hi, Brady.
09:07 [BradyDuga] Hi - sorry I am late
09:07 [MURATA] No problems.
09:08 *Kyoji join (Kyoji!~Kyoji_Tah@EM114-48-210-163.pool.e- 
mobile.ne.jp)
09:08 [MURATA] We have just started.
09:08 [MURATA] The agenda is http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/agenda.txt
09:08 *fantasai join (fantasai!fantasai@66.225.200.148)
09:08 [kennyw3c] The discussion for CSS3 Text yesterday is at http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-CSS-irc 
  (incomplete).
09:08 [kennyw3c] good morning, fantasai!
09:08 [MURATA] Hi, everyone.  The agenda is http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/epub/agenda.txt
09:09 [MURATA] Any comments on the agenda?
09:09 [MURATA] 3
09:09 [MURATA] 2
09:09 [MURATA] 1
09:09 [MURATA] OK, the agenda has been adopted.
09:09 [MURATA] First, the current status.
09:09 [MURATA] We have a list  of requirements.
09:09 [MURATA] Since our last meeting, nobody has sent ranking to Kenny.
09:10 [MURATA] So, Kenny does not have any new info.
09:10 [MURATA] Kenny, is this correct?
09:10 [kennyw3c] Yes, No update.
09:10 [MURATA] OK.
09:10 [MURATA] We have started to design solutions.
09:10 [MURATA] It is now on the wiki.
09:10 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_solutions
09:11 [MURATA] About 40% of the requirements have some solution  
proposals.
09:11 [MURATA] Nothing for vertical writing yet.  We have to wait for  
a while.
09:12 [MURATA] Folks, please have a look at the solution wiki page.
09:12 *fantasai is looking
09:12 [MURATA] The first one http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_solutions#Solutions_to_Page_progression_direction 
  should not be controvertial, but please submit another proposal if  
you have one.
09:12 [MURATA] No solutions for vertical writing.
09:13 [MURATA] No solutions for mixed text.
09:13 [kojiishi] we're still working on the 1st public WD as we  
discussed. We'd add link once it's up I guess.
09:13 [fantasai] Column progression direction is already handled by  
the multicol CR
09:13 [fantasai] If you adopt css3-multicol, then it is no problem
09:13 [MURATA] You are right.
09:13 [MURATA] Right.  We should add that as a solution to the column  
requirement.
09:13 *ChoChin join (ChoChin!~ChoChin@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:14 [MURATA] Hi, ChoChin.
09:14 [MURATA] We are reviewing a list of EGLS solutions, available at
09:14 [fantasai] We have solutions worked out for Providing Optimal  
Layouts for More than One Writing Mode and for Announcing Non-Optimality
09:14 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_solutions
09:14 [fantasai] But no spec yet
09:14 [MURATA] Yes, I cannot wait!
09:14 [ChoChin] Hi Murata san~ Hi everyone~
09:14 [fantasai] But it would be a microformat; so using technology  
already existing in HTML
09:14 [BradyDuga] Columns are also addresses in the styling and layout  
group -http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/StylingAndLayout#SNL_R3.1_Improved_column_support
09:14 [MURATA] Yes.
09:15 [MURATA] So, css3-multicol might make both your group and this  
group happy.
09:15 [MURATA] No solutions to line breaking yet, but I supose that  
the upcoming working drafts from CSS will provide solutions to some of  
them.
09:16 [kojiishi] yes
09:16 [MURATA] Solutions to Ruby.
09:16 [fantasai] BradyDuga: From that document, the image centering,  
aspect ratio controls are in css3-images
09:16 [fantasai] BradyDuga: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images is the  
latest working draft
09:16 [fantasai] BradyDuga: We do expect to have CR out near the end  
of this year
09:16 [MURATA] As for ruby, I tried to create a list of known solutions.
09:16 [fantasai] BradyDuga: The object-* properties should now be stable
09:17 [MURATA] We have four questions to be addressed first about ruby.
09:17 [MURATA] Q1: Should we use HTML5 ruby or should we use Ruby  
Annotation (an XHTML module)?
09:17 [kojiishi] Yeah, ruby might not be covered by CSS3 text spec and  
I'll look into further next week
09:17 *fantasai thinks that if you can find a set of markup that is  
compatible with both, you should do that
09:17 *kennyw3c agreed
09:18 [MURATA] Unfortunately, we cannot, since HTML5 does not have rb.
09:18 [kojiishi] agreed. it's just a work to write it up on the wiki
09:18 [MURATA] Complex ruby of XHTML ruby annotation is very powerful,  
but has never been implemented.
09:19 [MURATA] Some types of both-side-ruby in Japan can only be  
addressed by complex ruby of XHTML ruby annotation.
09:19 [MURATA] HTML5 ruby is not that expressive, but handy and easier  
to implement.
09:19 [murakami] html5 ruby's nesting is ok for both-side-ruby
09:19 *ChoChin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
09:19 *kennyw3c I think this is discussed in public-html-ig-jp or  
other place, do you have a pointer murakami-san?
09:20 [MURATA] In most cases, you're right, Murakami-san.
09:20 [kennyw3c] s/is/was/
09:20 [fantasai] Use <ruby><rb>BASE</rb><rt>annot</rt></ruby>, with  
only one <rt> <rb> pair per <ruby>, and that should be very simple
09:20 *ChoChin join (ChoChin!~ChoChin@219-87-151-40.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:20 [fantasai] HTML5 engines will ignore the <rb>
09:20 [MURATA] We might want to say so.
09:20 [MURATA] But we have to first decide whether we use complex ruby  
of Ruby annotation.
09:21 [MURATA] Complex ruby is very incompatible with HTML5 ruby.
09:22 [MURATA] Ideally, the HTML WG and I18N WG, and HTML JP IG should  
discuss and reach some consensus in a timely manner.
09:22 [murakami] html5 ruby is based on IE's ruby implementation. IE  
ignores <rb>s.
09:22 [MURATA] Yes.  Richard Ishida dislikes that.
09:22 [murakami] complex ruby is hardly implemented.
09:22 [MURATA] I know.
09:22 [MURATA] But some people really would like to have complex ruby.
09:22 [fantasai] I think it is better to start with simple ruby, and  
if necessary *and* you have implementation pressure, add complex ruby  
in 3.1
09:23 [fantasai] If nobody implements, there's no point in putting it  
in the standard
09:23 [MURATA] I am inclined to drop complex ruby for EPUB3, but I  
would like to make that decision in Taipei.
09:23 [fantasai] makes sense
09:23 [kennyw3c] Sure..
09:23 [MURATA] If somebody has objections, please speak up before the  
Taipei meeting.
09:24 [MURATA] The next question is OPS switching .vs rp elements.
09:24 [MURATA] Which is better for fallback?
09:24 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_solutions#Q2 
:_Should_we_use_OPS_switch_elements_(i.e.,_%3Cops:switch%3E
09:25 [MURATA] But there is no point in embedding HTML5 ruby as part  
of HTML5 via ops:switching
09:25 [BradyDuga] I think the intent is to move away from XHTML1.1  
toward html5
09:25 *fantasai doesn't know about ops, so has no comment on this.
09:25 [MURATA] Yes.  Then, unless we use Ruby annotation complex ruby,  
there are no good reasons to use ops:switch for wrapping ruby elements.
09:26 [BradyDuga] It seems ops:switch is more for extensions outside  
our spec
09:26 [MURATA] Right.
09:26 [murakami] EPUB should be compatible with the web and <rp> is  
already used in web, so EPUB should use it.
09:26 [MURATA] So, we are likely not to use OPS switch for ruby.  But  
let's make a decision in Taipei
09:27 [MURATA] Murakami-san, are you saying that rp should be allowed?
09:27 [MURATA] Or, should it be mandated?
09:27 [murakami] should be allowed.
09:27 [MURATA] OK.
09:27 [MURATA] The next question is very specific to Japanese.
09:28 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_solutions#Q3 
:_Should_we_replace_ 
%E3%81%81%E3%81%83%E3%81%85%E3%81%87%E3%81%89_in_ruby_text_by_ 
%E3%81%82%E3%81%84%E3%81%86%EF%BF%BD
09:28 [kojiishi] CSS3 text will have text-transform property to make  
all kana's to the large one if you want to use
09:28 [MURATA] I think that we should use small letters for AIUEO in  
markup and let the reading system to use usual letters.
09:29 [kojiishi] or you could use font-variant:ruby if the font has  
the variant
09:29 [kojiishi] font-alternate-variant? I forgot the exact name, sorry
09:29 [fantasai] font-variant: ruby; will work -- it is the shorthand
09:29 *fantasai looks up the longhand
09:29 [MURATA] So, you are sying that we should use CSS for this  
conversion.
09:30 [MURATA] I think that it is too much.
09:30 [MURATA] I would like to encourage reading systems to whatever  
they would like to do.
09:30 [kojiishi] I'm saying, it's a choice of either author or of IDPF
09:30 [fantasai] font-variant-alternates
09:30 *Mei-Li join (Mei-Li!~Mei-Li@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:30 [fantasai] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#propdef-font-variant-alternates
09:30 [kojiishi] You'll get a tool to do that properly. Either author  
or IDPF can make the decision
09:30 [kojiishi] Please note that
09:31 [MURATA] I would like not to use any mechanisms of CSS but  
recommend this conversion as part of a guideline document for  
implementors of reading sytemes.
09:31 [MURATA] OK, Ishii-san.
09:31 [kojiishi] font-variant:ruby provides Kana glyph optimized for  
ruby. it's not just making it to large kana
09:31 [murakami] the default UA stylesheet or mechanism for EPUB  
viewer should have such small kana to large kana transform settings.
09:31 [kojiishi] so for optimal typography, font-alternate:ruby is  
recommended from typography perspective
09:31 [fantasai] if the UA doesn't find a ruby alternate
09:31 [MURATA] Again, let's make a decision about this in Taipei.
09:32 [fantasai] then perhaps it could simulate that by switching to  
large kana
09:32 [kojiishi] I'll write it up by Taipei on the wiki
09:32 [fantasai] but if the ruby alternate is available, it should use  
that
09:32 [MURATA] I doubt it.
09:32 [kojiishi] ...you doubt...what?
09:32 [kojiishi] the availability of ruby glyph?
09:32 [MURATA] "simulate that by switching to large kana"
09:32 [fantasai] that's what you were asking in the first place
09:33 [kojiishi] There can be 3 ways to do that and we an do that all  
of them
09:33 [MURATA] Oh, I thought you are suggesting to use larger font for  
mimicking the conversion.
09:33 [fantasai] you said "recommend this conversion as part of a  
guideline document for implementors of reading systems"
09:33 [MURATA] My apologies.
09:33 [fantasai] I suggest to do that only if ruby variants are not  
available
09:33 [MURATA] Ishii-san, I am looking forward to your contributions.
09:34 [kojiishi] yap
09:34 [MURATA] The next question is CSS3 ruby. Should we use it for  
EPUB3?
09:34 [MURATA] I guess not.  It is not ready for HTML5.
09:34 [murakami] I guess not too.
09:34 [MURATA] But we should probably contact Richard Ishida.
09:34 [kennyw3c] For the bopompfo use case yes. But it's not very  
urgent, I suppose.
09:35 [MURATA] Thank you, Kenny.
09:35 [kennyw3c] Yeah.
09:35 [MURATA] Next, I provided some soultions for mono ruby, jukugo  
ruby, and group ruby.
09:35 [kennyw3c] Taiwanese folks, please read http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ruby/ 
  when you have time.
09:36 [MURATA] I find that neither HTML5 nor Ruby annotation (XHTML  
module) says something about mono ruby, jukugo ruby, or group ruby.
09:36 [kennyw3c] Richard Ishida has a nice document about this.
09:36 [MURATA] Richard Ishida's document is probably the only source,  
which has some status in W3C.
09:36 [MURATA] http://www.w3.org/International/datespace/2010/02/jlreq-examples/
09:37 [MURATA] I'm afraid that some of use do not agree with Richard's  
interpretation.
09:37 [fantasai] css3-ruby is missing a lot of implementation details  
for the support of the ruby "display" properties.
09:37 [MURATA] True, fantasai.
09:37 [MURATA] Murakami-san, may I aske you to review my solution  
proposals?
09:37 [fantasai] If EPUB uses it, it should not use the "display"  
properties, but require the use of ruby markup
09:38 [murakami] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2010Mar/0027.html
09:38 [kennyw3c] Please dump your discomfort about that document tohttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/ 
  .
09:38 [MURATA] Murakami-san, please provide examples for  Multiple  
Ruby Text
09:38 [MURATA] Yes, I will try.
09:38 [murakami] see the uri I've wrote.
09:39 *Mei-Li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
09:39 [MURATA] The biggest problem is that  HTML5 does not try to  
provide solutions for the use cases in W3C JLREQ.
09:39 *Mei-Li join (Mei-Li!~Mei-Li@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:39 *BradyDuga part  
(~duga@adsl-99-30-179-102.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net)
09:39 [murakami] In the Roland's opinion, all types of ruby are  
available by HTML5
09:40 *BradyDuga join (BradyDuga!~duga@adsl-99-30-179-102.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net 
)
09:40 [MURATA] Everything about jukugo ruby is guessing.
09:40 *fantasai tries to understand what this is about
09:40 [murakami] Jukugo ruby:   <ruby> 東 <rt> とう </rt> 京 <rt>  
きょう </rt></ruby>
09:40 [MURATA] Mono ruby, group ruby, and Jukugo ruby are just  
different.
09:41 [fantasai] It seems to me that HTML5 provides the appropriate  
markup
09:41 [MURATA] Murakami-san, unfortunately, Kanjis do not work ver  
ywell.
09:41 [MURATA] We are not sure.
09:41 [fantasai] It's just CSS3 does not handle jukugo ruby
09:41 [fantasai] where I am assuming jukugo ruby is what Richard  
describes in figure 108 explanation
09:41 [MURATA] HTML5 does not say anything about whether line breaks  
are allowed as part of a ruby element.
09:42 [MURATA] We need much more explicit text as part of HTML5.
09:42 [fantasai] HTML5 is not about rendering...
09:42 [kennyw3c] fantasai: do we need a new property for line breaking  
in an element?
09:42 [MURATA] But this is the point.
09:42 [fantasai] kennyw3c: like what?
09:42 [fantasai] I think HTML5 lacks definition of rendering
09:43 [kennyw3c] fantasai: don't now. word-break-between: avoid or  
something
09:43 [murakami] Line braking should be allowed between rt elements in  
html5 ruby.
09:43 *fantasai has no idea what you mean
09:43 [MURATA] Fantasai, are you saying that HTML5 should not try to  
distinguish jukugo ruby and group ruby?
09:43 [fantasai] it should
09:43 [MURATA] The only difference is line breaking.
09:43 [fantasai] it should not distinguish jukugo ruby and mono ruby  
(if I am understanding terms correctly)
09:43 [fantasai] That's not a semantic difference
09:43 [fantasai] it's a stylistic one
09:43 [fantasai] and should be handled by CSS controls
09:44 [fantasai] the difference between mono and jukugo ruby and group  
ruby
09:44 [MURATA] So, you do claim that HTML5 should not distinguish  
jukugo ruby and group ruby.
09:44 [fantasai] is that group ruby the annotation is paired the  
entire annotation to the entire base
09:44 [fantasai] and cannot be broken down
09:44 [MURATA] Mono ruby and the other two are just different.
09:44 [fantasai] in mono and jukugo, the association is piece by piece
09:44 [fantasai] but in jukugo, the rendering is more similar to group  
ruby
09:45 [fantasai] Line breaking for ruby should be the same as for the  
bases
09:45 [MURATA] Murakami-san, how do yo ufeel?
09:45 [fantasai] For example, if I annotate "butterfly" into two pieces
09:45 [fantasai] there should not be a break between 'butter' and 'fly'
09:45 [fantasai] because in English such line breaks are not allowed
09:45 [MURATA] But line breaking in Japanese is allowed almost anywhere.
09:46 [fantasai] but if I have 锻炼 and I annotate it
09:46 [murakami] Should allow break between <rt> and next ruby base in  
html5 ruby.
09:46 [fantasai] then it should be allowed to break
09:46 [MURATA] Then, how do you disallow line breaking?
09:46 [fantasai] You disallow line breaking on the <ruby> element
09:46 [fantasai] including all its bases
09:46 [fantasai] or in a span
09:46 [fantasai] or whatever
09:46 [fantasai] The line breaking must be controlled by the base text
09:47 [fantasai] not by the ruby markup
09:47 [fantasai] The ruby markup must follow the line breaking of the  
base
09:47 [kojiishi] using css, right. i agree with that
09:47 [fantasai] If this is not described in css3-ruby, then someone  
should file an issue....
09:47 [MURATA] Fantasai, are you saying that CSS properties attached  
to ruby base should control line breaking of the entire ruby?
09:48 [fantasai] yes
09:48 [MURATA] I see your point.
09:48 [fantasai] and not just the CSS properites
09:48 [fantasai] but also the text itself
09:48 [fantasai] so if there are no line breaking opportunities in the  
base text
09:48 [fantasai] there are none in the ruby
09:48 [MURATA] hmm, it appears that there are some differences of  
opinions among different parties.
09:48 [kojiishi] right
09:48 [fantasai] and if there are line breaking opportunities between  
ruby text, then the ruby text can break as well
09:48 [fantasai] sorry that was ambiguous
09:49 [MURATA] I now see your point.
09:49 [fantasai] I think I need better examples here ...
09:49 [MURATA] Murakami-san, you understand this issue very well.
09:50 [murakami] Hi?
09:50 [MURATA] Could you write a summary about this, reference to  
relevant documents (and e-mail archives), and send it to me?
09:50 [murakami] Yes.
09:50 [MURATA] Thanks.
09:51 [MURATA] Kenny, I guess that the HTML WG is already extremely  
busy, but are there any chances to raise this issue there?
09:51 [MURATA] Does HTML5 ruby basically come from MS?
09:51 [fantasai] it's not an HTML issue
09:51 [fantasai] it's a CSS one
09:52 [fantasai] line breaking is outside the scope of HTML
09:52 [kennyw3c] CSS Ruby issue?
09:52 [fantasai] yes
09:52 [MURATA] Yes, but we have to first agree that is is not an HTML  
issue.
09:52 [fantasai] line breaking or mono/jukugo/group ?
09:52 [kennyw3c] I would suggest you post some messages on public-i18n- 
cjk , Richard is watching that.
09:52 [MURATA] Both
09:52 [MURATA] OK.
09:53 [fantasai] Is this channel logged?
09:53 [MURATA] Fantasai, if you read Richard's document, he mentions  
some assumptions about line breaking inside ruby.
09:53 [MURATA] I plan to copy everything and send it to you guys.
09:54 [MURATA] OK.  I don't think we can make a decision today.
09:54 [MURATA] But let's continue this interesting discussion.
09:54 *Mei-Li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
09:54 [MURATA] The next topic is Bopomofo Ruby.
09:54 *Mei-Li join (Mei-Li!~Mei-Li@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
09:54 [MURATA] I cannot create any examples.
09:55 [MURATA] Neither HTML5 nor Ruby annoation XHTML module provides  
Bopomofo ruby examples.
09:55 [MURATA] What a shame!
09:55 [MURATA] Kenny?
09:55 [kennyw3c] Yes
09:55 [vwong] hi, can you send the channel log to me as well? my email  
is cwwong@astri.org
09:55 [MURATA] Please create some.
09:55 [kennyw3c] It's a CSS Ruby Module issue.
09:55 [MURATA] OK, Vincent.
09:56 [vwong] thx murata
09:56 [MURATA] Kenny, do you think that HTML 5 ruby is not good enough  
to represent Bopomofo ruby?
09:56 [kennyw3c] It's good enough.
09:56 [MURATA] Good to hear that.
09:56 [kennyw3c] semantically.
09:56 [MURATA] Then, is it possible to provide some example documents?
09:57 [kennyw3c] The ruby-position: bomomofo is the thing we need to  
promote.
09:57 [MURATA] I understand what you are talking about.
09:57 [kennyw3c] Sure. I suppose Taiwanese folks should write  
solutions and examples about that.
09:57 [MURATA] But are implementations allowed to examine code values  
of ruby text and automatically choose Bopomofo ruby style rendering?
09:58 [fantasai] They should not examine the text contents of ruby
09:58 [Phobos] I doubt.
09:58 [murakami] I think EPUB viewers can determine bopomofo or  
Japanese ruby using lang info.
09:58 [fantasai] yes, that makes more sense
09:58 [kennyw3c] I agree with murakami-san.
09:58 *fantasai agrees with murakami-san
09:59 [murakami] thinks:-)
09:59 [murakami] thanks
09:59 [MURATA] OK.  Kenny or some Taiwanese, please provide solutions  
and examples.
09:59 [Phobos] I agree with, too.
09:59 [kennyw3c] :lang(zh-TW) {ruby-postion: bopomofo}
09:59 [MURATA] So, we do need CSS3 ruby module.
09:59 [fantasai] kennyw3c: how to treat zh-hant?
09:59 [TommyLee] agree
09:59 [MURATA] At least the ruby-position property.
09:59 [kennyw3c] zh-HK don't use bopomofo, so
10:00 [fantasai] interesting
10:00 [MURATA] The next one is multiple ruby text.
10:00 [MURATA] I have no examples.
10:00 [MURATA] Murakami-san, do you have some examples of multiple  
ruby text?
10:00 [MURATA] By HTML5 ruby nesting?
10:00 [MURATA] Or Ruby annotation complex ruby?]
10:00 [murakami] see the JLReq
10:01 [MURATA] What I need is a marked up HTML source
10:01 [MURATA] JLReq does not provide any such solutions.
10:01 [MURATA] It just shows requirements.
10:02 [MURATA] I am aware of no HTML5 fragments for implementing  
multiple ruby.
10:02 [fantasai] I don't think you can do it with HTML5... it assumes  
too much about ruby being simple I think.
10:03 [fantasai] but I am not an expert in this
10:03 [MURATA] Murakami-san thinks it can.
10:03 [kennyw3c] nesting doesn't work?
10:03 [fantasai] nesting would be horrible
10:03 [fantasai] ruby of ruby?
10:03 [murakami] See the discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2010Mar/0027.html
10:04 [murakami] I wrote an example.
10:04 [MURATA] This does not provide any examples of nexted ruby for  
multiple ruby text
10:04 [fantasai] Ah, an that's interesting message
10:04 [MURATA] Oh, I made a mistake.
10:04 [MURATA] >  <ruby class="with-English-translation">
10:04 [MURATA] >     <ruby>東<rt>とう</rt>南<rt>なん</rt></ruby>
10:04 [MURATA] >     <rt>southeast</rt>
10:04 [MURATA] >  </ruby>
10:04 [murakami] Yes, that is.
10:05 [MURATA] OK.  Then, I will add this as a solution for multiple  
ruby text.
10:06 [MURATA] The next topic is "Handling Ruby According on User  
preferences or Displays Properties "
10:06 [ShuTanabe] We think not so much multiple rubys in published  
contents.
10:06 [MURATA] Simply put, Taiwanese would like to allow readins  
systems to do anything.
10:07 [Phobos] That's true.  :-)
10:07 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLS_requirement_list#Handling_Ruby_According_on_User_preferences_or_Displays_Properti
10:07 [fantasai] that message should be sent to www-style, too...
10:07 *vwong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
10:07 [MURATA] No matter which markup or CSS properties are specified,  
some Taiwanese would like to ignore them.
10:08 [MURATA] For good reasons.
10:08 [kojiishi] I see no issues with Murata-san's solution A
10:08 [kojiishi] what's the issue?
10:08 [MURATA] Some people believe that implementations are required  
to implement CSS properties as specified in the CSS recommendations.
10:08 [BradyDuga] Allowing freedom of implementation is a historically  
common position for the idpf
10:09 [MURATA] Others think that the CSS recommendations just  
specifies what is the intended behaviour and that reading systems are  
allowed to doo anything.
10:09 [MURATA] I agree with Brady.
10:09 [MURATA] Fantasai, how does the CSS  WG feel?
10:09 [fantasai] CSS has provisions for user style sheets
10:09 [kennyw3c] BradyDuga: That's Brady.
10:09 [kennyw3c] Thanks
10:09 [BradyDuga] For instance, many reading systems allow margins,  
font, sizes, etc to be changed by the user
10:09 [fantasai] many of those requirements would be addressed by the  
user stylesheet mechanism
10:09 [fantasai] suppressing ruby is easy
10:10 [fantasai] rt { display: none; }
10:10 [kojiishi] UA can change default style to, say, rt  
{ display:none }
10:10 [fantasai] parenthesized ruby is also easy
10:10 [MURATA] I do not think people bother to use CSS for igoring CSS
10:10 [kennyw3c] agreed. I think the issue here is only that some one  
needs to write down this....
10:10 [fantasai] rt { display: inline; } rt:before { content: '('; }  
rt:after { content: ')'; }
10:10 [fantasai] MURATA: THe user does not need to write the style rules
10:10 [MURATA] Even implementors
10:10 [fantasai] MURATA: What user do you know that writes style rules  
in order to change his default colors in the browser?
10:11 [fantasai] MURATA: None. But that is considered a user  
stylesheet rule by CSS
10:11 [BradyDuga] How the styles are changed is an implementation detail
10:11 [MURATA] OK.  If is a jargon of the CSS WG, that is fine.
10:11 [BradyDuga] But internally, our RS does modify a default style  
sheet
10:11 [BradyDuga] According to user settings
10:11 [MURATA] Interesting.
10:11 [BradyDuga] But I consider that an implementation detail
10:12 [MURATA] So, I do not see any real objections to my solution  
proposal for this requrement.
10:12 [MURATA] The next one is emphasis dots.
10:12 [MURATA] Fantasai?
10:12 [kojiishi] How to implement it is implementor's freedom.  
"Changing default style" is an example to show the basic idea, so they  
could but do not have to use the method to implement
10:12 [fantasai] It might be a good idea to provide some examples of  
CSS rules that would accomplish the various options
10:12 [kennyw3c] No. But an example UA style should be written down.
10:12 [MURATA] Agreed, Ishii-san and Fantasai.
10:12 [fantasai] Emphasis dots will be in css3-text
10:12 [kojiishi] emphasis dots. 1st WD coming on next week and I'll  
add link once it's up
10:13 [MURATA] Great!
10:13 [kennyw3c] cool :)
10:13 [MURATA] Taiwanese, Chinese, please carefully review it.  Your  
favorite characters for emphasis dots might be missing!
10:13 [fantasai] heh
10:13 [fantasai] We included all the characters in Ken Lunde's CJKV book
10:14 [MURATA] So, nobody should complain
10:14 [MURATA] Today, this IRC meeting worked very well.
10:14 [MURATA] We have exchanged a lot of useful information.
10:15 [MURATA] This certainly helps to make good decisions in Taipei.
10:15 [MURATA] I plan to have another next week.  Do people agree?
10:15 [fantasai] http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/emphasis-marks/
10:16 [kennyw3c] MURATA: Agreed.
10:16 [BradyDuga] I think another one sounds good
10:16 [MURATA] OK.  Then, let's have another.
10:16 [kojiishi] agreed
10:16 [kennyw3c] Maybe we should discuss vertical text modes next  
time. :)
10:16 [MURATA] Fantasai, when will you publish a next WD?
10:16 *Vincent join (Vincent!~cwwong@n219077228227.netvigator.com)
10:16 [BradyDuga] And I like this a lot more than the phone (I can eat  
my dinner while we have the meeting)
10:17 [MURATA] :-)
10:17 *vwong2 join (vwong2!~yaaic@203.174.58.68)
10:17 [MURATA] Somebody might be drinking beer.  :-)
10:17 *vwong2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org 
)
10:17 [BradyDuga] I am shocked!
10:17 [fantasai] css3-text, if we have a draft ready by next Wednesday  
night, I think the WG would be happy to publish it soon after
10:17 [fantasai] css3-writing-modes, not so sure
10:17 [MURATA] Are there some logistical information about the Taipei  
F2F meeting?
10:18 [kennyw3c] Yes, that I would like to hear.
10:18 [MURATA] Phobos?
10:18 [kennyw3c] MURATA-san, who are coming?
10:18 [MURATA] From Japan?
10:18 [MURATA] Three from Toppan
10:18 [kennyw3c] Yeah.
10:18 [MURATA] Kanai-san from Sony (US)
10:18 [MURATA] Me.
10:18 [MURATA] Kobayashi-san
10:18 [MURATA] Yamamoto-san
10:18 *Mei-Li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
10:18 [MURATA] Ishii-san
10:18 [MURATA] Fantasai
10:18 [Vincent] Vincent from ASTRI (HK) will join too.
10:18 [MURATA] Great
10:19 [MURATA] I'm not sure about Voyager.
10:19 [MURATA] But there will be at least 8 noisy Japanese.
10:19 *Mei-Li join (Mei-Li!~Mei-Li@124-9-6-2.static.tfn.net.tw)
10:20 [MURATA] Phobos, are there some information about the Taipei F2F?
10:20 [MURATA] Or, ChoChin?
10:20 [MURATA] Tommy?
10:20 [Phobos] Yes, Mei-Li is here, she could provide more detail.
10:21 [kennyw3c] (having beer now? :))
10:21 [MURATA] Mei-Li, Kenny has been spoiled by naughty Japanese.
10:21 [TommyLee] I am here. But I think it's up to III :p
10:21 [MURATA] Mei-Li, are you here?
10:22 [Phobos] The only thing we need for now is a web-page like  
MURATA-san did before the Sapporo meeting.
10:22 [Mei-Li] I here
10:22 [kennyw3c] Phobos: We do have one ->
10:22 [MURATA] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLSTaipeiMeeting
10:22 [kennyw3c] http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/EGLSTaipeiMeeting
10:22 [MURATA] But please feel free to extend it.
10:23 [kennyw3c] Please do extend it.
10:23 [MURATA] In particular, please provide information about  
Taiwanese food!
10:23 [TommyLee] oh okay. I think I'll recommend some restaurant near  
my house.
10:23 [MURATA] Great.
10:23 [MURATA] Are there any other things to be discussed today?
10:23 [MURATA] 3
10:23 [MURATA] 2
10:24 [MURATA] 1
10:24 [MURATA] OK.  The meeting is adjourned.  Thank you everybody.
10:24 [BradyDuga] Thank you!
10:24 [kennyw3c] Thank you MURATA-san!
10:24 [Phobos] Thank you MURATA-san.
10:24 [ShuTanabe] Thank you-
10:24 [Vincent] thx MURATA
10:25 [Kyoji] Thank you!
10:25 [TommyLee] Thank you MURATA-san!
10:25 [ChoChin] We will provide lauch and first dinner during Taipei  
meeting ~~ :P
10:25 [Ryoji_Akimoto] Thank you Murata-san & all!
10:25 [ChoChin] Thank Murata-san & all !!
10:26 [kennyw3c] murakami-san, will you guys be working at East today?
10:26 [murakami] yes, but before noon only.
10:26 [kennyw3c] Oh, where are you going after that? I want to visit  
you guys.
10:27 [MURATA] East is the company.
10:28 [murakami] Fantasai and Ishii-san will work today all day in EAST.
10:28 [MURATA] They might be concentrating on writing specs.
10:28 [MURATA] But you still might want to go there and say hi.
10:28 [kennyw3c] Hmm.... OK.. Yeah, maybe just say hi for a few  
minutes(?)
10:29 [MURATA] Up to Murakami-san, and Ishii-san.
10:29 [kojiishi] could have lunch together if you want
10:29 [murakami] I am ok.
10:29 [kennyw3c] I am at Shinagawa, I don't think I can make it...
10:30 *Mei-Li quit (Quit: Leaving)
10:30 [kojiishi] we can see each other at Taiwan anyway. it's up to you.
10:30 *Phobos quit (Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.4 -- Are we there yet?)
10:30 *Vincent part (~cwwong@n219077228227.netvigator.com)
10:30 *BradyDuga part  
(~duga@adsl-99-30-179-102.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net)
10:31 *wen-hsuan quit
10:31 *Kyoji part (~Kyoji_Tah@EM114-48-210-163.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
10:31 [kennyw3c] Anyway, let me catch you later. isshii-san, my phone  
number is 09072333143.
10:31 [fantasai] um, we are not having lunch for at least an hour and  
a half
10:31 [kojiishi] my phone 08037339998
10:31 [kennyw3c] Thanks, now I have to hurry...
10:31 [kennyw3c] bye see you.
10:31 *kennyw3c quit (Quit: kennyw3c)
10:32 [murakami] see you!
10:32 *murakami quit (Quit: Leaving...)
10:32 *Ryoji_Akimoto part (~chatzilla@EM114-48-210-163.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp 
)
10:33 *ShuTanabe quit (Quit: ShuTanabe)
10:33 *ChoChin quit
10:33 *TommyLee quit (Quit: I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ 
  for more information.)

Cheers,
Kenny