- From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:08:24 +0100
- To: public-i18n-arabic@w3.org
the minutes of this meeting can be found here:
http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html
----------
a text version of the minutes follows:
Arabic layout telecon
29 Sep 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-irc
Attendees
Present
richard, Shervin, Behnam, Mostafa, Najib
Regrets
Chair
Behnam, Shervin
Scribe
Shervin
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Preliminary playing with IRC
2. [5]Introductions
3. [6]review of existing keyword topics
4. [7]Recruiting
5. [8]Existing literature and resources
6. [9]AOB
* [10]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
Logistics
[These discussions were interspersed among the following
topics. I gathered them here for easier reading.]
<r12a> dial in guidance:
<r12a> go to
[11]https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2be0a83f0c7797b80b69c
e09c45e0419
[11]
https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2be0a83f0c7797b80b69ce09c45e0419
<r12a> enter a name for yourself
<r12a> enter an email address
<r12a> click on Join (don't click on 'start your meeting')
<r12a> click on call using computer
<r12a> najib, change your nick maybe?
<r12a> Host key: 277907
<behnam> [12]http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
[12] http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
r12a: Showing the room how to add items to minutes
... Two suggestions regarding alreq: it's going to be
requirements like any other req documents.
... The document should always be relevant. Need to intercept
with CSS WG. Not in this document; separate docs. We should
keep this document clear.
... Second point; priorities on topics. One way to do that is
looking at what ebook people need. Not sure what they need. We
should check.
... Elongation and justification are particularly challenging.
<behnam> [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
Introductions
shervin: introducing the meeting
... we had one meeting already where we just talked briefly
about what we're going to do
... we need to discuss that again
r12a: introduces self as i18n activity lead at W3C
behnam: i'm with Facebook
mostafa: i'm from Iran, and involved with startups, some
background in typography
najib: work at University of Rabat, in Morocco and manage W3C
office in MA
... also in i18n WG at W3C
review of existing keyword topics
[14]http://w3c.github.io/alreq
[14] http://w3c.github.io/alreq
shervin: we looked at the jlreq doc and tried to come up with
some topics we can talk about and get ideas from, while
adapting to arabic needs
... the jlreq doc is very detailed - we may need to start
smaller
... please take a quick look and see if there's anything we
need to talk about
najib: i suggest you add caligraphy to keywords
... it has a significant effect on positioning
Najib: Calligraphy to be added as a topic. As a paragraph or
section...
since it has importance.
behnam: as richard mentioned, i think we need to make it clear
what things we need to cover, there is a chance that we may
need to make recommendations for bidi and characters in Unicode
... we had a discussion about elongation, we may need to
consider proposing algorithms, but i'm not sure how we are
going to get there yet
mostafa: r12a mentioned other layout requirements, what are
they
<r12a> [15]http://www.w3.org/International/layout
[15] http://www.w3.org/International/layout
mostafa: is this list of topics based on some other source -
should we research more
<mostafa> Than you r12a
<Najib> s/As a paragraph or section…/In "Characters" or
"Paragraphs" section/
shervin: this is based on the the requirements docs in the
above url - used that as a source of ideas
... tried to translate the topics to the list we have
... it doesn't mean that we won't tailor the list, so certainly
you can propose other topics
shervin: wrt bidi, we may want to summarise the general
direction of the bidi algorithm, but getting into the detail
may not be appropriate for this document
... we can certainly refer to other dosc on the w3c site
<r12a> [16]http://w3c.github.io/typography/
[16] http://w3c.github.io/typography/
r12a: Another page is the W3C typography page as another source
... links to tests, CSS samples. The page is a central hub.
... We need to do: (1) the typography document gives us ideas
to include alreq (2) as we add topics to alreq we need to add
links to typography page.
... Agrees with Shervin regarding bidi low level details. Alreq
is mostly being about typography. We need to consider what
already exists.
... and we should be aware if we want to duplicate anything.
<Najib> +1
shervin: glossary of terms is really useful, and so we should
keep that updated as we generate content
... find arabic and persian versions of the terms
r12a: Re: Glossary. According to experience with other TC, very
important and can even be the starting point
... one issue with Chinese TC is vague terms. They are updating
glossary first.
<behnam_> +1
r12a: There are often not terms for a particular topic. Agrees
with glossary work from day one and keep it updated.
... It might be hard to find Persian, Arabic, and English terms
corresponding.
mostafa: i agree that it will be hard to find persian and
arabic terms, but that will help us later
... one minor issue: justification
... seems that the definition is about who justified, rather
than what is justification itself
... "To adjust the length of the line so that it is flush left
and right on the measure."
shervin: yeah, this is just placehodler text
behnam: please file a github issue
najib: +1 to r12a about glossary being a good starting point -
we can begin with more general terms
... we can get them from existing layout documents
... maybe in each region we can speak with arabic script
experst and learn from them what is important
shervin: its going to challenging to find these terms - it took
about 20mins using different sources to find a definition
... there's a longstanding tradition in both arabic world and
Iran, so i assume that there are terms related to these
concepts, but they may not be online
... they may be in a book somewhere
... so part of our work is research for sources for glossary
terms
r12a: Azzeddine might be of help when it comes to glossary work
... Read an article by him regarding elongation which was
different than what people like Tom Milo wrote.
... Invited him to the TC.
shervin: there is a wide variety of experts talking about
arabic script and its usages
... there are lots of first-hand and novel experiences because
they weren't documented before
... we may end up encouraging people to invent stuff to match
the needs of the industry
... eg. date-time formats don't make sense in some languages,
but mobile devices need that so we had to invent something
... the danger is that someone invents something and it becomes
the defacto approach, even if not based on strong evidence
r12a: W3C being the place interested in contributions. Feedback
loops are there.
... People review the content and tell us. We need to make sure
to get the message out there.
Recruiting
shervin: any thoughts about recruiting experts?
mostafa: there are experts in various countries who may be
helpful, but not all have time to join the TF
... or have the technical knowledge required
... is there a plan to use these experts
shervin: we have two levels of contributor (1) editors (2)
general public mailing list, github issues, and other channels
... if the expert has expertise and layout that is appropriate,
we may want to invite to the group
... some may not be able, so for those we can take our specific
questions to them
... eg. Tom Milo may not be able to participate but we can take
a question to him
... there are also the general mailing lists for arabic and
persian users and we may want to invite feedback on those
najib: We can use experts at least in getting useful feed back
from them
<behnam_> ArabEyes [17]http://www.arabeyes.org/
[17] http://www.arabeyes.org/
shervin: what we need right now is probably a few more core
members
... as many as possible
... for that we rely on our members
... people like Mostafa and Najib are on the ground and so well
placed to help
najib: arabeyes is good, i didn't know about it before
mostafa: wrt recruitment, i'll look around for people
<scribe> ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran.
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
shervin: some pointers, people from tech industry in Iran may
be interested
... Najib and Azzeddine are from N Africa, do we have anyone
from Middle East
r12a: Was in Oman and doing Unicode training. Some people at
the German Univ. might be interested. Richard sends an email to
them.
<scribe> ACTION: Richard to send an email to folks at German
Univ. in Oman. [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
behnam: as discussed in first meeting, we do have a variety of
languages in south asia and se asia who use this script
... they have a distinct style (writing or layout) - it's
important to also have peole from those regions in early stage
shervin: this is for ?
behnam: Urdu, Persian in India, and others that cross the
border
shervin: in the long term that sounds great - the original
focus on the doc is persian and arabic - it may be too early to
branch, but we can contact people
... Uighur is not in our purvue, per the charter
r12a: The groups should communicate regarding the shared
topics.
<scribe> ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for
other languages like Urdu. [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
r12a: People of ilreq might have the expertise and might have
it on their list of topics. But might not be top of the list
for them.
... Stay focused regarding the scope of the document not to be
overwhelmed.
Existing literature and resources
shervin: we just talked about glossary - i find it useful to
maintain a list of resources
... eg in persian there is a book called راهنمای آماده ساختن
کتاب
... it's a mixture of a book about books and a book about
publishing and typography
... it might be useful to pull together a list of these books
in persian and arabic
mostafa: The title means “The Manual of Making Books”
... it may also be web sites - we need to just check how
reliable and detailed they are
<scribe> ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of
existing literature. [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
shervin: i also wanted to say that almost all large
universities and companies have some kind of style guides
... i checked a couple of them in arabic speaking world
... we should take them with caution, but if we put 5 alongside
each other we may find useful common trends
AOB?
<scribe> ACTION: Shervin and Behnam to have the agenda for next
meetings. [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
r12a: Unrelated topic. Richard is the host of the meeting. The
host has more control over what's happening in the teleco. The
host key was not in the invite. We can have it there
... and anyone can take control of the meeting and we're sure
that no one is going to abuse that right.
... Host can mute and unmute folks in the teleconf.
... We should check on IRC before unmuting folks for privacy
purposes.
najib: is there a plan for a FTF meeting?
shervin: some people meet at the Unicode conference, but
nothing is planned now
najib: Morocco office could host a meeting, if needed
r12a: is not going to be in IUC. First time since 1995.
... No events to visit Bay Area at the moment.
shervin: please take a look at the working draft - there were
just key words in the beginning, and i threw some things in off
the top of my head
... some of these are not necessary ready for development yet
... please take a look and send us some ideas for expanding the
best topic so that we can start assigning content development
actions
mostafa: what is preferred? is it best to send PR for all
glossary suggestions or send separately?
shervin: since we have little content at the moment maybe
bundle them, but in future when we get into the details then
we'll need to separate topics
r12a: Regarding the minutes; someone should go through the
draft of the minutes and make sure that they are okay and then
send to public.
Shervin: Any document of process of editing the minutes?
r12a: Showing the process of making the minutes from draft to
public.
<scribe> ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the
minutes and get back to the group. [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
<r12a> meeting adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other
languages like Urdu. [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Mostafa to reach out to experts in Iran.
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes
and get back to the group. [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Richard to send an email to folks at German Univ.
in Oman. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin and Behnam to have the agenda for next
meetings. [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of
existing literature. [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 30 September 2015 07:08:36 UTC