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Re: remove hydra:Resource and hydra:Class (ISSUE-90)

From: Miel Vander Sande <miel.vandersande@ugent.be>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:11:03 +0100
Cc: Markus Lanthaler <markus.lanthaler@gmx.net>, public-hydra@w3.org
Message-Id: <253C9EFD-4935-4BA6-9D1A-0D158FA18CAD@ugent.be>
To: Ruben Verborgh <ruben.verborgh@ugent.be>
In general, I would say an application determines the next action based on predicate semantics, rather than types. If a client comes across <x> rdfs:seeAlso <y>, its the seeAlso that makes it dereference <y>, not <y> itself. Maybe <y> is an identifier now, but a resource later. Whatever efficiency you want to provide, it is more explicit to model it like that. 

Cheers,

Miel



On Jan 13, 2015, at 9:51 AM, Ruben Verborgh <ruben.verborgh@ugent.be> wrote:

> Hi Markus,
> 
> Thanks for summarizing.
> 
> I'll just react on two things that IMHO are not technically correct.
> 
>> Efficiency and performance improvements on the client and reduced load on
>> the server. As Tomasz says
>> 
>> On 12 Jan 2015 at 21:26, Tomasz Pluskiewicz wrote:
>>> However the reason for hydra:Class as described in the specification
>>> is the without guidance the client would have to blindly try
>>> dereferencing everything.
>> 
>> On 12 Jan 2015 at 22:22, Ruben Verborgh wrote:
>>> That reason is incorrect.
>> 
>> I don't think so.
>> 
>>> A client's need to dereference something is not influenced in any way
>>> by marking that something as hydra:Class.
>>> Only a mechanism that says something is *not* dereferenceable can have
>>> such an influence.
>> 
>> It's not about the "need". Think of something simpler, something like a
>> crawler. It just follows hyperlinks. It shouldn't have to try to dereference
>> every identifier it finds..
> 
> We shouldn't forget that an absence of hydra:Resource does not mean anything.
> To clarify matters, I will discuss such a crawler in two situations.
> 
> 
> SITUATION 1: WITH HYDRA:RESOURCE
> 
> The crawler receives a document with 35 resources with an HTTP(S) URL.
> 30 of them are explicitly labeled with type hydra:Resource.
> 
> In order to find out whether the other 5 resources are dereferenceable,
> the crawler has to perform 5 GET requests.
> 3 of them dereference, 2 do not.
> 
> In order to dereference the 30 remaining resources,
> the crawler has to perform 30 GET requests.
> The 5 others have been dereferenced already.
> 
> Total GET requests: 35. Dereferenced: 33.
> 
> 
> SITUATION 2: WITHOUT HYDRA:RESOURCE
> 
> The crawler receives a document with 35 resources with an HTTP(S) URL.
> None of them have type hydra:Resource.
> 
> In order to find out whether the 35 resources are dereferenceable,
> the crawler has to perform 35 GET requests.
> By the same action, 33 resources are dereferenced.
> 
> Total GET requests: 35. Dereferenced: 33.
> 
> 
> Same result in both cases. Note in particular how hydra:Resource
> did not prevent us from having to check dereferenceability.
> 
> 
>>> But then again, what tangible benefit does this give?
>>> 
>>> To dereference it, you must GET it.
>>> To check whether it is dereferenceable, you must GET it.
>> 
>> To know whether it's worth (or expected) to being checked.
> 
> 
>> Ever tried to dereference xsd:integer to get its definition?
> 
> I cannot tell whether I should by the absence of hydra:Resource.
> hydra:Resource does _not_ solve non-dereferenceable resources,
> and, perhaps surprisingly, thus also not even dereferenceable resources.
> Indeed, every resource that is _not_ labeled with hydra:Resource,
> but still dereferences, is by definition a hydra:Resource.
> 
> So “whether it's worth being checked” cannot be derived
> from the presence of hydra:Resource,
> as all (HTTP[S]) resources are worth being checked
> until indicated otherwise—which hydra:Resource cannot.
> 
> Furthermore, “expected” to be checked is not part of its definition.
> Again, everything that is dereferenceable is by definition a hydra:Resource,
> even though it's not indicated. Should we then check them all?
> 
> In other words: all cases where hydra:Resource is _not_ mentioned
> is actually an omission in the response.
> Whether or not a particular server thinks we should follow it
> does not affect hydra:Resource-ness in any way,
> but only our immediate knowledge of it (in the positive case).
> If we want a stronger contract (“expected”), we should create one.
> The hydra:Resource notion does not provide meaningful info.
> 
> 
> I do understand the purpose of hydra:Resource and hydra:Class,
> but I strongly feel we have chosen the wrong way of addressing that purpose.
> What happens now is that we are defending hydra:Resource and hydra:Class
> based on (sometimes incorrectly implied) features we'd miss if they were removed.
> It should be the other way round: what are the features we need,
> and are hydra:Resource and hydra:Class really the best way to bring them?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Ruben
Received on Tuesday, 13 January 2015 09:11:32 UTC

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