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Re: Use cases for <hgroup> ? [WAS] revisiting <hgroup> in HTML

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:03:11 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VnXaOYVitWcoVMJuonv2KsUwkAY94HF=28NhNb+-r_Caw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Hi leif,

feel free to put your use cases on a HTML wg wiki page where they can get
wider review and feedback.


with regards

SteveF <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
--
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>


On 9 March 2013 16:05, Leif Halvard Silli
<xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>wrote:

> Steve Faulkner, Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:29:41 +0000:
>
> >
> > can you or anyone provide  use cases for <hgroup> that
> > are not covered by existing markup?
> >
>
> Let me hear if the following use cases satisfies you:
>
> 1) Auxiliary headings are a fact, whether marked up or not:
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitle_(titling)
>    They are today distinguished via punctuation and line breaks.
>    In HTML, we use 1) CSS styling, 2) <h1>Main<br>Auxiliary</h1>,
>    3) <h1>Main</h1><h2>Aux.</h2> or 4) <h1>main</h1><p>Aux.</p>.
>
> 2) Today’s cow paths (<h1>+<p>, <h1>+<h2>, <h1><br></h1>) do not
>    convey the 'auxiliary heading' semantics to consumers and, with
>    exception of <h1>+<p>, they do not allow us to avoid that the
>    auxiliary headings are represented standalone or mixed with the
>    main part of the heading in outlines and ToCs. E.g. to query
>    above cowpath solutions for their auxiliary headings, brings
>    nothing. Semantic aux. headings would let us separate headings
>    & auxiliary headings, so they can be consumed accordingly.
>
> 4) We should not make it obligatory to mark up subtitles. Except
>    that an overlong heading creates other problems, it should
>    remain 100% OK to concatenate heading and auxiliary headings
>    into a heading without auxiliary headings.
>    So both of the following fake code variants should be OK:
>    [1] <heading>Frankenstein;</heading>
>        <aux.Heading>or, the Modern Prometheus</aux.Heading>
>    [2] <heading>Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus</heading>
>    (And while it shouldn’t be the default, such concatenation of
>    heading and subtitle should be permitted in outlines as well.
>    Such concatenation already happens in book library catalogs.)
>
> 5) Yet: If something is clearly a subtitle, it should be possible
>    to tell authors that: 'Sorry, you have marked up an auxiliary
>    heading/subtitle as a real header'. Or: 'sorry, but the way you
>    did it, the auxiliary heading nature of that <p> does not get
>    conveyed to the users. Or: 'The reason why that JavaScript
>    implementation of the HTML5 outline algorithm (such as the MS
>    one, http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/SemanticNotepad)
>    does include that element, is because you have not marked it up
>    as an *auxiliary* heading.
>
> >
> > If yes do you or anyone have concrete proposals on how
> > to modify hgroup
> >
>
> Let me hear if you think following changes would bring us forward:
>
> a) limit hgroup’s 'heading content' from (today) the entire
>    element to first occurrence of the highest ranked h1-h6 child.
>    NOTE: From now on, I name this child as 'heading content'.
>
> b) define the rest of hgroup’s content as auxiliary heading(s).
>
>    NOTE about a) and b): This is similar to <caption>, which is
>    part of of the <table> element without itself being table.
>
> c) allow <p> as auxiliary heading/subtitle
>
> d) do not touch hgroup’s effect on outlines, except for one thing:
>    if there is no h1-h6 children, the hgroup doesn't have any rank
>    (currently it gets a rank even when there is no h1-h6 child).
>
> e) present each auxiliary heading as a subtitle to ATs, but
>    (typically) without mentioning their rank. Also see point f).
>
> f) If rank of 'heading content' is of same rank as the first,
>    adjacent subtitle (e.g. if hgroup has two, parallel <h1>
>    children), UA MAY suppress the adjacent subtitle’s auxiliary
>    nature, so the element is presented as part of the heading
>    content - visually, this can be achieved e.g. by adding
>    style="display:run-in" on the 'heading content' element:
>             <hgroup><h1 style="display:run-in" >Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <h1>or, the Modern Prometheus</h1></hgroup>
>    Demo:http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2158
>    NOTE:By default, still only first h1 would occur in outlines.
>
> g) Add some 'baby steps' limitations, to avoid overcomplicated
>    solutions until we get more implementation experience:
>
>    1) Limit the 'heading content' element to be the first child of
>       hgroup. This makes it simpelr to select/style via CSS and
>       simpler to understand. All current examples of hgroup in the
>       spec keep the primary element as the first one.
>
>    2) Say that all auxiliary headings of a particular hgroup
>       SHOULD/MUST be of the same level (that is: of a single level):
>             <hgroup><h1>Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <p>or, the Modern Prometheus</p>
>                     <p>A Gothic novel</p></hgroup>
>       Negative/Unrecommended example:
>             <hgroup><h1>Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <h2>or, the Modern Prometheus</h2>
>                     <p>A Gothic novel</p></hgroup>
>       NOTE: a parallel subtitle of same rank as heading content,
>            is in this regard not counted - thus, this is OK:
>             <hgroup><h1 style="display:run-in">Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <h1>or, the Modern Prometheus</h1>
>                     <p>A Gothic novel</p></hgroup>
>
> i) Add advice about how to cater for legacy ATs and legacy UAs:
>   1. Point out that use of <p> for subtitles has the advantage
>      that it doesn’t have the legacy issues of being included in
>      ToC's and outlines. To instead use h1-h6 elements may risk
>      confusing users or legacy AT etc. Recommend to style the
>      <p> to make it get the right size etc.
>   2. Also, point out that <p> can be used as an auxiliary, lower
>      ranked heading for <h6> (this use case is not possible
>      to serve with today’s spec!)
>   3. Recommend auxiliary heading(s) to be of lower rank than the
>      next heading. This helps distinguishing the subtitle from the
>      subsequent heading when CSS is disabled etc. Example:
>             <hgroup><h1>Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <p>or, the Modern Prometheus</p></hgroup>
>                     <h1>Chapter 1</h1>
>       Negative/Unrecommended example:
>             <hgroup><h1>Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <h1>or, the Modern Prometheus</h1></hgroup>
>                     <h1>Chapter 1</h1>
>   4) Recommend authors to bind the heading content and auxiliary
>      headings together verbally. The word 'or' in the Frankenstein
>      heading might serve as an example of how it can be verbally
>      signaled that the second h1 element really is a subtitle of
>      the first h1 element:
>             <hgroup><h1>Frankenstein;</h1>
>                     <h1>or, the Modern Prometheus</h1></hgroup>
> --
> leif halvard silli
Received on Wednesday, 13 March 2013 12:04:28 GMT

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