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Re: Use cases for <hgroup> ? [WAS] revisiting <hgroup> in HTML

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 09:29:41 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+V=+0X8R7Bznu7YUj-XgrNgQ-OzEqbGkCRKRVbnpw+9jkw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Hi Leif,

getting back to the topic of this thread:

I suggest a  good starting point for supporting the continued inclusion of
<hgroup> in HTML would be to provide some use cases that actually warrant
the element.

So what are the use cases for <hgroup>?

can you or anyone provide  use cases for <hgroup> that are not covered by
existing markup?

If yes do you or anyone have concrete proposals on how to modify hgroup to
provide the semantics to the accessibility layer that its definition
implies i.e.
 headings with multiple levels, such as subheadings, alternative titles, or
taglines.

regards
SteveF

On 7 March 2013 00:30, Leif Halvard Silli
<xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>wrote:

> Steve Faulkner, Wed, 6 Mar 2013 23:17:08 +0000:
>
> >> But in this case, could it not be possible to
> >> redefine or 'shape up' the hgroup element so that the user experience
> >> for e.g. a11y users becomes better and easier to understand?
> >
> > Yes it would, question being why are we trying to polish a turd?
> >
> > The suggestions in the spec about adding characters to delineate headings
> > and sub headings are just that.
> >
> > there is nothing defined for user agents its not even a should and in
> > practice why would authors give over the styling/formatting of a heading
> to
> > user agents?
>
> That particular proposal about how to render, seems to have text
> browsers and other limited rendering canvases in mind. On the other
> side, there is also
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/rendering.html#rendering, which the spec
> expects graphical UAs to follow quite literally. And there is no doubt,
> in that section, that hn in hgroup defaults to be rendered like hn
> outside hgroup.
>
> > If an author wants a heading/subtitle combo to look like this:
> >
> > heading: subheading
> >
> > she can do this
> >
> > <h1>heading: subheading</h1>
> >
> > why do this in the hope that it gets outputted as the author desires?
>
> I think the specís point probably is that it would be (formally) valid
> to place colon there and render it on one line. And in fact, for
> navigation menus, we often use lists, which we render horizontally
> instead of their default display. So if a <ul> can be rendered on one
> line, why not a <hgroup> as well?
>
> > <hgroup>
> > <h1>heading</h1>
> > <h2>subheading</h>
> > </hgroup>
> >
> > There is no requirement or even suggestion for any user agent to display
> > the resulting heading is the same way.
>
> In my view, that is to exaggerate the situation. See above. Display is
> not the problem. But semantics perhaps needs to be better defined -
> then it would be easier to accept that display varies.
>
> > What about the meaning or appropriateness of the suggested characters :
> or
> > () in differing languages, deo they all mean the same thing in Russian or
> > Kenji or Mandarin as they do in English, how is the user agent going to
> > handle differences?
>
> The meaning of the colon is for the Unicode consortium to define. But
> Unicode has several colons, and if it was an Ethiopic text, then
> perhaps the Ethiopic colon would be the appropriate. The spec is
> written in 'en-US', or 'enUS-x-hixie' Ö The meaning of () and : for
> that variety of English, is well known. Punctuation is what we use to
> divide lines etc. Even a navigation menu could use punctuation, e.g.
> via CSS generated content, to separate the list items.
>
> > If an author wants heading to be included in the as yet implemented
> > document outline with a subtitle separated by a : or in () they can do
> this:
> >
> > <h1>heading: sub heading</h1>
> >
> > <h1>heading (sub heading)</h1>
> >
> > if they don't they can do this:
> >
> > <h1>heading</h1>
> > <p>subheading</p>
> >
> > or this
> >
> > <header><h1>heading</h1>
> > <p>subheading</p></header>
> >
> > or this
> >
> > <h1>heading</h1>
> > <div>subheading</div>
> >
> > or any other combination.
>
> Would the above 'subheadings' be styled like (sub)headings? If yes,
> then wouldnít the A11Y users loose information if those subheadings
> werenít announced as such?  I don't think we can conclude that a piece
> of text isnít a heading doesnít occur in the ToC or in the outline,
> then it isnít a heading.
> --
> leif halvard silli



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Received on Thursday, 7 March 2013 09:30:50 UTC

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