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Re: revisiting <hgroup> in HTML

From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 17:31:49 +0100
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: Heydon Pickering <heydon@heydonworks.com>, public-html@w3.org
Message-ID: <20130306173149204421.f524bda7@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Hi Steve,

If vendors have not implemented hgroup as specced yet, there ought to 
be window for redefining rather than obsoleting. If the alternatives do 
not possess any more potential than <hgroup>, then redefining seems 
better than obsoleting.

Jirka mentioned role="subheading". And it seems to me that that thought 
can work together with <hgroup>:

<hgroup>
 <h1>The reality dysfunction</h1>
 <h2 role="subheading" >Space is not the only void</h2>
</hgroup>

The role="subgroup" could happen automagically, in line with what the 
spec says about the rank of the hn elements of a hgroup, so that 
authors don’t have to add the role attribute. I believe even the 
<subline> option would need some sort of ARIA role in order to have any 
benefits. Or else, it would be as much of an antipattern as <hgroup> 
is. 

One could also make it an authoring error if hgroup only contains two 
levels of same rank - it seemed like you said that the spec requires 
the two such elements to be handled as one element:

<hgroup>
 <h1>The reality dysfunction</h1>
 <h1>Space is not the only void</h1><!--Authoring error-->
</hgroup>
 
With regard to what Heydon said about <subline>, then it seems to me as 
problematic that <subline> would allow you to do this:

         <h1>The reality dysfunction</h1>
         <p>Some extra text goes here</p>
<subline><h2>Space is not the only void</h2></subline>
         <p>Now, what is that subline to this paragraph?</p>

With <hgroup>, this option/problem is avoided. 

One advantage of the <subline> proposal is that it permits authors to 
use a p-element, instead of a hn-element, as its content. That way 
authors can add it, without overloading users with partly meaningless 
semantics. Instead, when <subline> is supported, the subline adds 
useful new information. But even this could be achieved by <hgroup>, if 
we allowed it to take the <p> element.

Leif Halvard Silli

Steve Faulkner, Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:05:59 +0000:
> hi Heydon,
> 
> right, the name of the element is the least of our problems :-)
> 
> getting implementer buy in is the key, but hey if <hgroup> got implemented
> anything is possible...
> 
> regards
> Steve
> 
> On 6 March 2013 15:00, Heydon Pickering wrote:
> 
>> I much prefer &lt;subline&gt; to the hgroup pattern, Steve.
>> 
>> However, I think "sub" is unecessarily restrictive, implying it should
>> only ever be "under" something (a heading?)
>> 
>> I'd like an element that lets me define a slogan / strapline / mission
>> statement which is not bound so much to context.
>> 
>> Something like &lt;figure&gt;, I guess, but more semantically specific. A
>> visual equivalent of meta description might be
>> a good model.
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>> 
>> 
Received on Wednesday, 6 March 2013 16:32:20 GMT

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