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Re: Please put in interim text for the ISSUE-204 statement about exposing semantics of hidden content

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:01:48 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VkZae8T_4JNYJNQZLWpzsRb8_96-iC6q64aFzzAXeCuAw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, "Edward O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, public-html@w3.org, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
Hi Jonas,

> Does that then mean that we should add a warning statement to any feature
> which doesn't have accaptable fallback a warning statement that the feature
> shouldn't be usedd?

Depends on the feature, if the feature has been around for a long time
and does not have practical accessibility support, then yes. I believe
this is what has been done in the living standard in regards to the
title attribute [1] and the changes are currently under consideration
by the working group for inclusion in HTML5.

Providing practical guidance to authors in the spec, where practical
i.e. the spec matching reality, I believe is as important as the spec
matching implementation realities.

>> I.e. should we add this to most of the new <input> types? To pushState? To
> <video>? To <nav>?

as in most cases the spec is changed when bugs are filed and accepted.

> Should we add it to headers and longdesc given their poor adoption in non-AT
> UAs?

for headers (i am assumimg here you are referring to the headers
attribute on tables, is there something that non AT users are missing
out on? I think not, headers serve to provided the explicit
association required by AT, that is provided implicitly by the visual
arrangement of th elements.

For longdesc (if it were to be added back into the spec) I would
suggest strongly that authors be made warned of its patchy support
across browsers and AT.

When and if a particluar feature is implemented and when and if
accessibility support is implemented then the guidance can be updated
to reflect this reality.


regards
SteveF

[1] https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/master...feature;whatwg_title


> I.e. should we add this to most of the new <input> types? To pushState? To
> <video>? To <nav>?
>
> If not, what criteria are we using to dtermjne which new features get a
> warning?
>
> Should we add it to headers and longdesc given their poor adoption in non-AT
> UAs?


On 15 September 2012 22:59, Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2012 3:14 PM, "Maciej Stachowiak" <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:06 PM, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I think that's a good thought.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Jonas Sicking wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Could we at least add language saying that this is only applicable
>> >>> until a sizable portion of UAs have implemented the ability to expose
>> >>> the full semantic content to users.
>> >>>
>> >>> Otherwise we'll be making poor recommendations, which is exactly what
>> >>> that sentence is trying to avoid doing.
>> >
>> >
>> > Respectfully, that is a really bad idea.
>> >
>> > One of the most oft cursed phrases of WCAG 1 was "Until user agents ..."
>> > (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#until-user-agents) -
>> > here,
>> > what is sizable, when and who decides, what happens to backward
>> > compatibility, etc., etc.?
>> >
>> > I would strenuously urge this Working Group to not fall into that trap
>> > again
>> > - it caused significant confusion and consternation prior to the release
>> > and
>> > adoption of WCAG 2.
>>
>> That example makes me lean even more towards my previous suggestion (which
>> you snipped) - which is to update the spec when and if the future condition
>> we imagine actually occurs.
>
> Does that then mean that we should add a warning statement to any feature
> which doesn't have accaptable fallback a warning statement that the feature
> shouldn't be used?
>
> I.e. should we add this to most of the new <input> types? To pushState? To
> <video>? To <nav>?
>
> If not, what criteria are we using to dtermjne which new features get a
> warning?
>
> Should we add it to headers and longdesc given their poor adoption in non-AT
> UAs?
>
> / Jonas



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Sunday, 16 September 2012 09:02:58 GMT

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