W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > September 2012

Re: Adaptive Image Element Proposal

From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 06:23:30 -0500
Message-ID: <CAOavpvckhnVe9Zd=spxD8GXS7-oZU84ZcuKN9PUy8FqAT-ZXQQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: Adrian Roselli <Roselli@algonquinstudios.com>, Mathew Marquis <mat@matmarquis.com>, Peter Winnberg <peter.winnberg@gmail.com>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, "public-respimg@w3.org" <public-respimg@w3.org>
Hi Leif and all,

I put together a test of longdesc for responsive images with a
variation of Scott Jehl's Picture Fill:
http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/scottjehl-picturefill/index.html

Test Results:
Reveals and works correctly at all sizes from small to extra large
(e.g., opens description page
http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/scottjehl-picturefill/external/carvingdesc.html
when activated) in:

* JAWS With Internet Explorer (Testing by Gez Lemon)
* Internet Explorer via alert and link with Jim Thatcher's favelet
(Testing by Gez Lemon)
I tested the following:
* iCab via native contextual menu
* Opera via native  contextual menu
* Opera via Chaals McCathieNevile's TellMeMore extension
* Firefox via contextual menu with Patrick's longdesc extension
* Firefox via link with Anthony's longdesk extension
* Safari via alert and link with Jim Thatcher's favelet
* Chrome via alert and link with Jim Thatcher's favelet
http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/scottjehl-picturefill/index.html#results

I uploaded screen shots to the Wiki

Opera
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/3/3d/Operasmall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/1/12/Operamedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/e/e7/Operalarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/2/2d/Operaextralarge.png

iCab
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/8/8d/Icabsmall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/d/da/Icabmedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/a/a7/Icablarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/3/37/Icabextralarge.png

FireFox with longdesc
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/b/ba/Longdescsmall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/4/46/Longdescmedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/3/32/Longdesclarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/8/8f/Longdescextralarge.png

FireFox with longdesk
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/c/cc/Longdesksmall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/e/e7/Longdeskmedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/e/ec/Longdesklarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/0/05/Longdeskextralarge.png

Chrome
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/9/9e/Chromesmall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/5/58/Chromemedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/f/fd/Chromelarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/5/5d/Chromeextralarge.png

Safari
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/2/23/Safarismall.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/f/f5/Safarimedium.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/2/29/Safarilarge.png
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/images/2/24/Safariextralarge.png

Leif, I also checked your test page:
http://malform.no/testing/a-demo-of/picture-element-accessible-longdesc/
The images on this page do not seem to be responsive images but static
images. Anyway my results of that testing:

iCab Native
Control: Contextual menu works
Test 1: Contextual menu doesn't work
Test 2: Contextual menu works

Opera Native
Control: Contextual menu works
Test 1: Contextual menu doesn't work
Test 2: Contextual menu works

Firefox/w Patrick's longdesc extension
Control: Contextual menu works
Test 1: Contextual menu doesn't work
Test 2: Contextual menu works

Best Regards,
Laura

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Leif Halvard Silli
<xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> wrote:
> Laura Carlson, Fri, 7 Sep 2012 17:54:27 -0500:
>
>>> <picture>
>>>   <img src=file alt=text longdesc=description.url >
>>> </picture>
>>>
>>> QUESTION: How would users of the equipment listed on your
>>>           research page access that longdesc?
>>>   ANSWER: It would be broken in some of them...
>>>
>>> Browsers: I believe it would not work in a single one of the browsers
>>>           that you list. E.g. it would not work in iCab. Why not?
>>>           Because you cannot access the context menu for an image
>>>           that is hidden behind another element.
>>
>> This is incorrect Leif. It seems to work in all of them that I tested.
>>
>> Here is a test page:
>> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/research/constriants/picture-test.html
>
> When your message arrived, it was 3,5 hours since my reply to Adrian,
> where I included links to the <picture> test upon which I based the
> above claims. [*] But there is nothing in your message that signals
> that you or Geez have seen or evaluated that test page. So I am gonna
> assume that you deemed me incorrect without having checked my test page.
>
> |*] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0064
>
> I checked your test page:
>
> (1) There is no responsive image  - or polyfill features that are
>     typical for such images -  in that test - it is just an
>     <img> with a picture wrapper around. The picture wrapper
>     does not contain any image (via CSS) like the responsive
>     image polyfills always do. Obviously, in a picture polyfill
>     the picture image would (normally) cover the image of the img
>     element, which in turns makes the img inaccessible for
>     contextual menu access.
>
> (2) To insinuate that I said that an unstyled <picture> element
>     would create anymore problems than an unstyled <div> or <span>
>     really isn't very helpful.
>
> From my perspective, in its current form, your test page does not
> enlighten the problem with contextual access to longdesc when the <img>
> is behind another image.  Therefore, we can *not* have a debate of that
> problem based on that page as it stands. The only value I see it in it
> is that it demonstrates that support for @longdesc on the <img> element
> is alive and kicking.
>
> I really have a hard time understanding why it is so hard to admit
> that, given a polyfill technique for a responsive image that bases
> itself on <video> elemen model, then special care needs to be taken if
> one wants the child element's longdesc attribute to be accessible to
> users of browsers with contextual menu access to the longdesc link.
> Yeah, the only way to completely avoid that problem would be by
> canceling the <video> element model and instead go for a model were we
> extends the very <img> element with more attributes and more CSS - a la
> what Aaron demoed:
>
>  http://blog.easy-designs.net/archives/2012/04/16/iir-redux/
>
> But as for responsive image techniques that are more a la the <video>
> element, then here are some article - it is these kinds of polyfill
> techniques that needs to be checked with regard to longdesc
> accessibility
>
>  http://csswizardry.com/2011/07/responsive-images-right-now/
>  https://github.com/scottjehl/picturefill
>  http://nicolasgallagher.com/responsive-images-using-css3/
>  http://css-tricks.com/which-responsive-images-solution-should-you-use/
>
> And my test page I notified you about, do try to check the longdesc
> accessibility for that kind of polyfill:
>
> http://malform.no/testing/a-demo-of/picture-element-accessible-longdesc/
> --
> leif halvard silli


-- 
Laura L. Carlson
Received on Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:24:03 UTC

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