W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > November 2011

Re: CP remove hgroup add an outlineMask attribute.

From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:15:00 +0100
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Message-ID: <20111107181500326232.d6568348@xn--mlform-iua.no>
The CP mentions the possibility of 'misuse'. And an @outlinemask 
attribute could in theory be added to heading without a directly 
preceding heading element. Is that part of the proposal? Is that a use 
or a misuse? What happens if done?

If yes, then a perfect CSS display value for <h1-h6> elements with the 
@outlinemask  set, would often be the CSS 3 run-in display. For 
instance, I have in front of me a text that looks something like this:

  <h1>1.5 Stress in Russian pronouns of the 3rd person</h1>
  
  <h2 outlinemask >In the nominative case</h2>
  <p>Bla bla description.</p>

  <h2 outlinemask >In the oblique cases</h2~
  <p>Bla bla description.</p>

<h1-h6> elements with the @outlinemask set would thus be able to 
replace cases where the one currently uses <b> or <strong> in order to 
highlight the first sentence of a sentence etc. Of course, it should 
and would not replace every such use of <b> or <strong>, but there are 
many cases where it would, could and - I think - should.

The weakest point of such a solution seems to be that it could create a 
mess with regard to rank. E.g. considering the above example, what if 
you add a <h3> element without the @outlinemask *after* the above 
example? E.g. to the blind reader, he or she will create an 'outline' 
in his head, and as a result perhaps think that the leve 3 header is a 
'child' of the preceding <h2 outline> ? 

This - btw - seems like a problem - in principle - with all the other 
proposals as well, except the <hsub> proposal. 

CSS run-in: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-box/#run-in 

Leif H Silli


Steve Faulkner, Mon, 7 Nov 2011 13:56:53 +0000:
> Hi James, 
> 
>> To the extent that one believes in semantics, the semantic of 
> "subheading" is clearly different from that of "heading".
> 
> I don't disagree with this, but  hgroup does not fulfill the function 
> of differentiation. The only explicit semantic it has specified is in 
> reference to how a subheading must be mapped to accessibility APIs. 
> In this regards there is a must level requirement that the such 
> subheadings are to be collapsed into the main heading. The subheading 
> semantics is removed.
> 
> this is why i have resubmitted my subline proposal:
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup

> 
> regards
> Stevef
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 November 2011 13:49, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com> wrote:
>> On 11/07/2011 02:28 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>> 
>>> The<hgroup>  element has no uniquely useful function other than to 
>>> remove a
>>> heading from the outline generated using the outline algorithm.
>> 
>> As a general point, I disagree with this statement. To the extent 
>> that one believes in semantics, the semantic of "subheading" is 
>> clearly different from that of "heading" and it is not hard to 
>> imagine that UAs may want to process them differently even when they 
>> do not implement the full outline algorithm; e.g. a search engine 
>> may want to rank such text above normal body text by below fully 
>> heading text, or an AT might want to read a subheading together with 
>> its associated heading but in a different voice.
>> 
>> This is not to say that something like <h2 subheading> could not 
>> work. It has a reasonable fallback story but is verbose and feels a 
>> lot like a violation of DRY, therefore making it ugly. It also has 
>> the same problems that other proposals that don't group the heading 
>> and the subheading; that is it makes it easy to author in a way that 
>> is not processed as expected (e.g. putting the subheading before the 
>> heading without explicit <section> elements), and hard to implement 
>> correctly (presumably subheadings could occur anywhere in a section 
>> so one has to scan a lot of the tree looking for them).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> with regards
> 
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
> 
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | 
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - 
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - 
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html 
> 
Received on Monday, 7 November 2011 17:16:06 UTC

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