W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > November 2011

Re: Change Proposal to replace hgroup with a simple element > Naming and use

From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:45:04 +1100
Message-ID: <CAHp8n2=m8ee_WO4tMQokxjqQ99pbJqqd0fgeCM+Ec3ojPtBpyA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dean Leigh <dean.leigh@deanleigh.co.uk>
Cc: public-html@w3.org
Not possible - it already exists:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-sub-and-sup-elements
Cheers,
Silvia.


On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Dean Leigh <dean.leigh@deanleigh.co.uk> wrote:
> I think the naming of this element as <hsub> indicates and therefore restricts its use to only being a sub Sub-Heading.
> Whereas <subline> may in future be used as 'sub' to other elements e.g. <caption>, <figcaption>.
>
> Therefore I would like to propose that the element be further simplified to <sub>.
>
> - This addresses the semantic issues as it is a <sub> of its preceding tag
> - It can be ignored in outlines
> - It can be styled easily with >
>
> We can then which focus discussion on which tags are eligible for <sub>.
>
> Regards,
> Dean Leigh
>
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Simon Pieters [mailto:simonp@opera.com]
>>>Sent: 07 November 2011 06:40
>>>To: public-html@w3.org; Kornel Lesiński
>>>Subject: Re: Change Proposal to replace hgroup with a simple element
>>>
>>>On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 00:38:32 +0100, Kornel Lesiński
>>><kornel@geekhood.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Lars Gunther that reuse of <h1-h6> for subheadings causes
>>>> nothing but trouble, and subheadings can be marked up in a more
>>>> straightforward manner.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to propose a new element that IMHO is much easier to understand
>>>> and use correctly, satisfies all major use cases of <hgroup> and does
>>>> not break outline in legacy UAs.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal is in the wiki:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hSub
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> Change Proposal
>>>>
>>>>     Replace <hgroup> with an element that has a simple content model and
>>>> backwards compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> Rationale
>>>>
>>>>       * <hgroup> overloads meaning of <h1-h6>, making them either
>>>> headings included in document
>>>>         outline or not, depending on context created by hgroup and other
>>>> headings. No other
>>>>         element in HTML creates such ambiguous context-dependent
>>>meaning.
>>>>
>>>>       * Name and usage of <hgroup> can be confused with <header>, since
>>>> both appear in headers
>>>>         and group elements.
>>>>
>>>>       * <hgroup>'s content model disallows adding extra <div>s around
>>>> multiple subheadings, which
>>>>         may be needed as styling hooks.
>>>>
>>>>       * Existing content on the web does not use as complex multi-level
>>>> subheadings as <hgroup>
>>>>         was intended to support. There is no need to precisely mark up
>>>> levels of subheadings, as
>>>>         the whole title is meant to be read in (document) order and
>>>> subheadings are not used for
>>>>         sectioning/navigation.
>>>>
>>>> Details
>>>>
>>>>     <hsub> element is a subheading. It represents a subheading for its
>>>> section (i.e. it is
>>>>     associated with the heading in the same section that the <hsub> is
>>>> in). The algorithm for
>>>>     associating <hsub> with a section is the same as for <h1-h6>, except
>>>> <hsub> does not imply
>>>>     new sections.
>>>
>>>So basically it's associated with a section in the same way as <p>.
>>>
>>>>     <hsub> element has same content model as <h1-h6>.
>>>>
>>>>     Optionally: <hsub> can be allowed to be nested inside <h1-h6>, which
>>>> allows full title to be
>>>>     seen as a header in legacy UAs and makes it easy to style heading
>>>> and subheading using CSS.
>>>>
>>>>    Examples
>>>>
>>>>   <body>
>>>>   <h1>Title</h1>
>>>>   <hsub>Subtitle</hsub>
>>>>
>>>>   <h1>Second Title</h1>
>>>>   <div>
>>>>       <hsub>Second Subtitle 1</hsub>
>>>>       <hsub>Second Subtitle 2</hsub>
>>>>   </div>
>>>>   </body>
>>>>
>>>>   <article>
>>>>       <hsub>The Magical</hsub>
>>>>       <h1>Title</h1>
>>>>       <hsub>That Has</hsub>
>>>>       <hsub>Multiple Subtitles</hsub>
>>>>   </article>
>>>>
>>>>    Styling
>>>>
>>>>     The most common usage of subheadings can be styled simply with h1 +
>>>> hsub CSS selector.
>>>>     Authors can make complex headers easier to select by wrapping
>>>> headings and subheadings in
>>>>     <header>. Relaxed content model allows "styling hook" elements to be
>>>> added as necessary.
>>>>
>>>>    Authoring errors
>>>>
>>>>     Mistakes in usage of <hsub> cannot break document outline, which is
>>>> a significant improvement
>>>>     over <hgroup>.
>>>>
>>>>     At worst, in a rather rare case of subtitle preceeding the title,
>>>> subtitle may end up
>>>>     associated with an earlier heading:
>>>>
>>>>   <h1>Unrelated title</h1>
>>>>   <p>Content</p>
>>>>
>>>>   <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub>
>>>>   <h1>Title</h1>
>>>>
>>>>     However, this kind of mistake can be easily eliminated by use of
>>>> <section>/<acticle>
>>>>     elements:
>>>>
>>>>   <section>
>>>>     <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub>
>>>>     <h1>Title</h1>
>>>>   </section>
>>>>
>>>> Risks
>>>>
>>>>     Removal of the <hgroup> element.
>>>>
>>>
>>>FWIW, I think this proposal is better than the <p>-in-<header> proposal
>>>(which changes meaning of <p> based on placement) and the <subline>
>>>proposal (which allows <h2> in <subline> so still breaks the outline in
>>>legacy impl).
>>>
>>>My only concern with this proposal is whether <hsub> should be allowed
>>>"anywhere" or if it should be restricted in some way (e.g. require a
>>>heading in its section, don't allow it in implied sections unless it is
>>>follows the heading element directly).
>>>
>>>--
>>>Simon Pieters
>>>Opera Software
>
>
Received on Monday, 7 November 2011 07:46:02 UTC

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