W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > June 2011

RE: ISSUE-30 longdesc - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals

From: John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'Matthew Turvey'" <mcturvey@gmail.com>, <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <011701cc2c52$df0be1a0$9d23a4e0$@edu>
Matthew Turvey wrote:
> 
> Since Orca and VoiceOver do not currently implement support for
> londesc, *by default* longdesc is inaccessible on the Mac and Linux
> platforms.

This is patently false:

Macintosh (OSX)

	iCab = native access
	Opera for Mac = native access
		Opera for Mac + TellMeMore extension = native access +
visible indicator in the user chrome
	Firefox for Mac + Longdesc Plugin = access

Linux
	Opera for Linux = native access
		Opera for Linux + TellMeMore extension = native access +
visible indicator in the user chrome
	Firefox for Linux + Longdesc Plugin = access
(Not to mention that Janina has already confirmed that she uses [Firefox +
plugin + ORCA] to access @longdesc content routinely - or are you
suggesting that she is fibbing?)


VoiceOver is a system level application/tool and not a platform.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoiceOver) If you are concerned that
VoiceOver does not support @longdesc, I urge you to file a bug at Apple:
http://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/ 

ORCA is a software application (Screen Reader) that runs on the Linux
platform. (http://projects.gnome.org/orca/) If you are concerned that ORCA
does not support @longdesc, I urge you to file a bug at the GNOME
Bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/    

The fact that you are not differentiating between applications and
operating systems here calls into question your understanding of the
issue, and the problems associated to the issue. 


> It does appear to invalidate your claim that longdesc currently "DOES
> provide effective and consistent support for users regardless of
> browser and AT".

How, because *if* a user chooses to use tools that are flawed, that an
HTML attribute is broken? That's like saying Torx screw-heads (ISO 10664)
are useless because most people don't have Torx screw-drivers.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx) 

The logic simply does not follow.



Matthew Turvey also wrote:
> >
> > Finally, we can find some common ground.
> 
> Great. Can you explain to Janina how poorly supported longdesc is, and
> why it doesn't currently provide a reliable and effective user
> experience.
> 

No, because a collection of tools that provide support for @longdesc
*DOES* exist today for those that need or require that support, and
individual users who want to access long descriptions supplied via
@longdesc, whether they are sighted or not, have a choice of options to do
just that.

I reject your assertion that for any part of HTML5 to be useful or
valuable that it must have universal "support" in browsers - if this is
the case then I would also expect to see you file a Bug, and escalate to
an Issue, the fact that because all browsers do not support H.264 encoded
videos (.mp4 files) that the use of .mp4 files should be deemed
non-conformant in HTML5, as 3 of the major 5 browsers do not support H.264
encoded videos, and further have very publicly stated that they will not.

While you're at it, perhaps you will also seek to remove the Details &
Summary elements from the Draft spec, since at this time it appears that
most browsers (with the exception of Chrome) show no sign of making that
content "accessible" as well. MathML should go as well, if you are looking
to sanitize the web: here only Firefox provides support (with limited
support in Opera). http://caniuse.com/#search=MathML 

Of course, these suggestions are as ludicrous as your suggestion - all are
grasping at straws to try and make a point and ignore other realities in
evidence today.

Matt, at this point it appears to me that you are now simply trolling this
list: you have 2 options - file an alternative Change Proposal, or wait
for the Chairs to post another survey and register your objections there.

JF
Received on Thursday, 16 June 2011 18:26:41 UTC

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