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Re: Re http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510

From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:20:05 -0400
Message-ID: <4E4471B5.2040304@intertwingly.net>
To: Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org>
CC: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, TAG List <www-tag@w3.org>, Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>, "Michael[tm] Smith" <mike@w3.org>
Does the following change sufficiently make the issue moot?

http://html5.org/r/6427

- Sam Ruby

On 06/27/2011 10:50 AM, Tim Berners-Lee wrote:
>
> On 2011-05 -26, at 01:20, Ian Hickson wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 May 2011, Tim Berners-Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#examples
>>>>
>>>> In the example, the HCARD data is to be parsed to produce RDF data
>>>> with a predicate whose URI is
>>>> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/microdata#http://microformats.org/profile/hcard%23:adr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is an appalling URI, for a number of reasons.
>>>>
>>>> 1. It is horribly long
>>
>> It's opaque and not intended for human consumption, so that doesn't seem
>> like a serious problem.
>
> URIs are, of course, seen by humans in fact in many cases
> even though to first order a web browsing person should not see any.
>
> A developer or a data analyst writing a SPARQL query
> like
> select * where { ?who
> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/microdata#http://microformats.org/profile/hcard%23:adr
>  > ?where }
>
> is not going to be so.
>
>
> Remember that there is while the HTML code for a web page
> is rather cumbersome to look at compared the page, if you extract the
> data and serialize it as turtle it often looks pretty easy for
> the advanced user to understand. (Say the same level of user as one
> who can handle spreadsheets).
>
>
>
>> 2. It is constructed including two other URIS, so that there is a
>>>> combination of two authorities, so it will only be supported if the
>>>> w3.org <http://w3.org> and microformats.org
>>>> <http://microformats.org> sites coordinate the generation of new
>>>> microformats.
>>
>> Actually the W3C part of the URI is fixed and used for all microdata
>> vocabularies, so the w3.org <http://w3.org> site doesn't have to be
>> involved in the
>> development of the vocabulary at all. I'm happy to use another URL if you
>> would like; I used that one for consistency with e.g. the URLification of
>> the rel="" values in RDFa. It could be a whatwg.org
>> <http://whatwg.org> URL or even a separate
>> scheme altogether. The latter would also reduce your issue #1 above about
>> length.
>
> The microdata spec should not be arbitrarily different from the RDFa
> spec. The URIs generated should work with RDF.
>
> Yes, a shorter URI which is in the w3.org <http://w3.org> space and then
> has a hash
> followed by the localname could work, effectively a default namespace
> hosted by w3c, who would support it on the web.
> Or microformats but they might not want to serve RDF schemas.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>> It makes W3C responsible for supporting things added in
>>>> microformats.org <http://microformats.org> which, while W3c may need
>>>> to do this special cases
>>>> should not be built into the semantics of the HTML language.
>>
>> There is no effort needed on the W3C side for this at all. If the W3C
>> would rather not be part of this though I'm happy to change the URL.
>>
>>
>>>> 3. Because it has a hash in he middle instead of at the end, typical
>>>> serializers won't be able to use namespace prefix on output, so any
>>>> files which use these URLs will by ugly, unreadable, and large.
>>
>> I don't understand this issue. Could you elaborate?
>
> Serializers use namespaces to make the output compact and
> readable. They typically use N3/turtle prefixes or XML namespaces as
> abbreviations
> where the hash or if none the last slash is taken as the end of
> the namespace URI, and everything from then on must be basically a
> localname.
>
>
>>
>> If the URL syntax allowed the # character in a fragment identifier, we
>> could avoid escaping the second one; would that help?
>
> No.
>
> Tim
>
>>
>> --
>> Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL
>> http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
>> Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>>
>
Received on Friday, 12 August 2011 00:20:37 GMT

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