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Re: aside and figure elements

From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:39:05 +0200
To: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: Bruce Lawson <brucel@opera.com>, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Shelley Powers <shelleyp@burningbird.net>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20100607203905450887.287915c3@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Also note that if we do

	<figure role="img">
		<img src="image" role="presentation" >
    	<summary>Description</summary>
	</figure>

then <figure>, just like the WAI-ARIA example, groups *two* elements  - 
<summary> and <img>.

PS: We really *must* define <figure> so that it - in general - is 
unnecessary to use aria-labelledby for designating the caption. Just as 
for the <caption> of <table>, it should be self evident what <figure>'s 
caption element is captioning.

And this begs the question: What role does <table>'s <caption> element 
have? The best match I could find was the abstract role "sectionhead": 
[1]

]]
A structure that labels or summarizes the topic of its related section.
]]

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#sectionhead

Leif

Leif Halvard Silli, Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:45:59 +0200:
> Ah, now (think) I understand your thinking. Please note that this is 
> permitted, despite that is not a group of elements, but only a single 
> element:
> 
> <img role="img" alt=" Alt text. " src="image" >
> 
> Leif
> 
> 
> Leif Halvard Silli, Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:41:37 +0200:
>> Steven Faulkner, Mon, 7 Jun 2010 18:34:40 +0100:
>>> hi leif,
>>> 
>>>> But this does not rule out using <figure role="img">
>>> 
>>> ONLY if the images are meant to be percieved as a single image:
>>> 
>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#img
>>> "An img represents a single graphic within a document, whether or not
>>> it is formed by a collection of drawing objects."
>> 
>> Right. But that is the kind of debate we have? This debate does focus 
>> almost solely on the case when <figure> is used to give an <img> a 
>> caption.
>> 
>> Leif H.
>> 
>>> regards
>>> stevef
>>> 
>>> 2010/6/7 Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>:
>>>> Steven Faulkner, Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:19:11 +0100:
>>>>>> Again, Steve, you did not answer one of my questions previously: what
>>>>>> is the default ARIA role for <figure> *itself*?
>>>>> 
>>>>> leif try reading what i wrote in my original email on this thread:
>>>>> 
>>>>> # <figure> should be mapped to accessibility APIs as a grouping
>>>>> element like <p> or <div>
>>>>> 
>>>>> in other words role="group"
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, I'm sorry I did not looked harder before asking. But this does
>>>> not rule out using <figure role="img">. Firstly, quoting ARIA,
>>>> role="img" designate a group *as well*:
>>>> 
>>>> ]]
>>>> group
>>>>    A set of user interface objects which are not intended be included
>>>> in a page summary or table of contents by assistive technologies.
>>>> []
>>>> img
>>>>    A container for a collection of elements that form an image.
>>>> [[
>>>> 
>>>> Secondly, an img doesn't take part in in the TOC.
>>>> 
>>>> Leif Halvard Silli
>>>> 
>>>>> regards
>>>>> stevef
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 7 June 2010 16:10, Leif Halvard Silli
>>>>> <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> wrote:
>>>>>> Steven Faulkner, Mon, 7 Jun 2010 15:19:09 +0100:
>>>>>>> hi bruce,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> <figure>
>>>>>>>> <img src=ceo.jpg alt="">
>>>>>>>> <figcaption>Brian Slick, CEO of Blammo Corp, leveraging a
>>>>>>>> synergy</figcaption>
>>>>>>>> </figure>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> seems entirely accessible (?)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the issue i see with this is that using alt="" says the image can be
>>>>>>> safely ignored. A caption is a label for something so the presence of
>>>>>>> the image needs to be exposed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is no different from the WAI-ARIA example - WAI-ARIA does not
>>>>>> think it has to "be exposed":
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <div role="img" aria-labelledby="caption">
>>>>>> <img src="example.png" role="presentation" alt="">
>>>>>> <p id="caption">A visible text caption labeling the image.</p>
>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> when <figcaption> is supported in browsers the mapping will be
>>>>>>> provided so that:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <figure><img src=ceo.jpg alt="Brian Slick, CEO of Blammo Corp,
>>>>>>> leveraging a synergy"></figure>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <figure>
>>>>>>> <img src=ceo.jpg>
>>>>>>> <figcaption>Brian Slick, CEO of Blammo Corp, leveraging a
>>>>>>> synergy</figcaption>
>>>>>>> </figure>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> will both provide the accessible name as "Brian Slick, CEO of Blammo
>>>>>>> Corp, leveraging a synergy"
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proper solution to Bruce's example ought to be be this:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <figure role="img" >
>>>>>> <img src=ceo.jpg alt="">
>>>>>> <summary>Brian Slick, CEO of Blammo Corp, leveraging a
>>>>>> synergy</sumamry>
>>>>>> </figure>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, there are some backward compatibility issues. We have to discuss
>>>>>> how we can be *both* backward compatible *and* HTML5 compatible.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> leif halvard silli
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> with regards
>>>>> 
>>>>> Steve Faulkner
>>>>> Technical Director - TPG Europe
>>>>> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>>>>> 
>>>>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
>>>>> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>>>>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> with regards
>>> 
>>> Steve Faulkner
>>> Technical Director - TPG Europe
>>> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>>> 
>>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
>>> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> 
Received on Monday, 7 June 2010 18:40:14 GMT

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