IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-01-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
19:58:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
19:58:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/18-html-a11y-irc
19:58:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:58:34 [Zakim]
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19:58:36 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
19:58:36 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:58:37 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
19:58:37 [trackbot]
Date: 18 January 2010
19:58:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
Meeting: HTML Canvas Accessibility Caucus
19:58:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
chair: Rich
20:00:32 [davidb]
passcode?
20:01:14 [Stevef]
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20:01:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
92473
20:01:55 [davidb]
ah finally worked
20:02:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/0044.html
20:02:49 [silvia]
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20:03:02 [richardschwerdtfe]
scribe: davidb
20:03:21 [davidb]
rs: use of input controls in shadow dom
20:03:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: Use of Input controls in a shadow DOM
20:03:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/4
20:04:54 [davidb]
db: not sure about shadow dom
20:05:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
david: The concern I have is the amount of resource that will go into this solution
20:05:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
david: Is anyone going to do this
20:05:53 [davidb]
sf: devs want to add interaction to canvas
20:06:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
s/david/db/
20:06:12 [davidb]
sf: if we combine a solution that happens to make it accessible, then win win
20:09:52 [davidb]
all: discussion of canvas use cases
20:10:06 [davidb]
rs: pushing on alternative content for tricky cases
20:10:38 [davidb]
rs: if you can do it via shadow dom great, if not, provide alt content, and way to select it via media query
20:11:06 [davidb]
rs: in bespin you have a toolbar, no reason that same toolbar can't be implemented as html5 toolbar
20:11:40 [davidb]
rs: in shadow dom as we navigate toolbar we render it on screen via canvas, but actually have a11y tree populated using html markup (shadow dom)
20:12:27 [davidb]
sf: dave do you see alternatives?
20:12:36 [davidb]
db: i don't have a great answer
20:13:11 [davidb]
all: more discussion of canvas examples
20:13:43 [davidb]
rs: consider subway map
20:15:56 [davidb]
rs: you need a vehicle to select what version you want
20:16:15 [davidb]
rs: some people want fallback content rendered
20:16:20 [davidb]
rs: how does user choose
20:16:48 [davidb]
rs: any technical reason you couldn't insert interactive controls in 'shadow dom'
20:17:14 [davidb]
db: unsure about how this works if not rendered.
20:19:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: could move the shadow dom to -5000, -5000
20:19:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
sf: yes but then magnifiers will not work
20:19:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: yes that is the problem
20:20:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: so focus for users would be on the shadow DOM?
20:20:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
rs: yes but rendering would be on the visual canvas
20:20:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: this is going to require evangelization
20:21:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
sf: why?
20:21:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: what answer I got. I like the canvas API but I don't like the DOM API
20:22:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: I thin for people used to working in a toolkit where they have something like a canvas and they do all themselves then they are in that mind set
20:22:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
SF: we need to be able to draw a focus rectangle
20:23:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: for the user interaction is focus and all the event handlers are on the shadow dom
20:23:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: you could have the keyboard and mouse handlers on the canvas element
20:24:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: so it is up to the web developer
20:25:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
rs: we are not requiring people to do the shadow DOM
20:25:43 [davidb]
sf: some people are concerned about slowing down canvas rendering
20:25:51 [davidb]
sf: don't see this happening
20:25:55 [davidb]
rs: no
20:27:31 [davidb]
db: what do other browser devs thing?
20:28:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
db: this shadow DOM idea does not strike me as something that has to be spoken in the same breath as canvas
20:29:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/4
20:30:57 [davidb]
db: not 100% sure
20:35:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/5
20:36:46 [davidb]
db: i don't see another way
20:37:36 [Stevef]
Canvas Focus management http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/Overview.html#focus-management
20:39:32 [Stevef]
"When a canvas is interactive, authors should include focusable elements in the element's fallback content corresponding to each focusable part of the canvas."
20:39:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/0044.html
20:40:16 [Stevef]
i don't thinkit is correct now
20:40:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
Resolution: Close Action items 4 and 5. Mozilla supports the use of input controls in the shadow DOM at thi stime
20:41:53 [davidb]
rs: we are going to have situations where we need to choose alt content
20:42:01 [davidb]
rs: there is no vehicle to choose fallback content
20:42:31 [davidb]
sf: if it is included in the tab order and can be interacted with by any user, it is no longer 'fallback' is it?
20:42:59 [davidb]
sf: you might want the canvas or something else to be displayed
20:43:08 [davidb]
rs: i've been looking at use of media queries
20:43:36 [davidb]
rs: we would essentially be adding additional modality tags
20:44:26 [davidb]
rs: consider audio and visual tags
20:44:33 [davidb]
rs: visual with properties xyz
20:44:43 [davidb]
rs: AT interoperable
20:46:43 [davidb]
rs: currently html5 spec says you can put content inside canvas tags, and if browser cannot support canvas, then content would be rendered in its place
20:48:26 [davidb]
rs: you need a selection mechanism for rendering. having as fallback doesn't necessary work.
20:49:05 [davidb]
rs: if you support the html5 spec, must you support canvas?
20:49:06 [davidb]
sf: yes
20:50:37 [davidb]
db: sorry i gotta go
20:52:48 [Stevef]
Canvas Focus management http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext/Overview.html#focus-management
20:59:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
Action: SteveF ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for