W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > January 2010

Re: removing the srcdoc

From: Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:58:29 -0600
Message-ID: <643cc0271001260958h3821133bg53ba4a94560686e3@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > There is a great deal of contention about the new srcdoc attribute. Do we
> > have to go through the Decision Process in order to have it removed?
> > Having to do this to reverse an edit that hasn't shown itself to be
> overly
> > popular is becoming a little tedious.
>
> The only reasoning you have provided for removing @srcdoc is that you
> think that the benefits of @sandbox aren't great enough to make it
> worth using for blog comments and similar cases where you are
> inserting content inline to your page.  Presumably the conclusion of
> this is that we thus don't need to make it easier to meet this
> use-case, and thus @srcdoc isn't needed.
>
> I think a much more prudent course of action is to first see if we can
> extend @sandbox to be more useful to this use-case.  There has been
> some discussion of this in a thread on the WHATWG list, and I've
> gathered a list of those suggestions and added a few of my own,
> including some suggestions derived from your own objections.
>
>
The use case provided has been proven both unnecessary, and the solution is
not optimum. In fact, the implication of the solution could cause harm if
people relied on it for comment security.

I'm not making a comment on sandbox, I can see the interest in this, but
seems to me the srcdoc attribute was not well thought out.

Also seems that you and Julian are having a discussion on data URLs and
perhaps this is a better option.

But that example, and frankly this entire use case, should be removed from
the document.

Shelley


> I believe the correct solution to "This doesn't do enough." is "Can we
> make it do more?", not "Welp, time to dump it.".
>
>
> Now, we could still potentially drop @srcdoc entirely, if data urls
> are sufficient.  @srcdoc is pretty much just solving some problems
> with data urls in @src, after all.  From what I've been able to
> gather, these are the problems with data urls (and possible
> solutions):
>
> 1. Data urls are understood by browsers that don't know about
> @sandbox, and thus will render there without sandboxing protections.
> They "fail open", as opposed to @srcdoc which will only be implemented
> by browsers that have already done @sandbox.  This appears to be
> fixable by using a text/html-sandboxed mimetype on the url instead of
> text/html, though.  Apparently, no current browser will execute a page
> served with text/html-sandboxed, and we can hope that it continues
> that way.
>
> 2. Data urls have more difficult escaping requirements.  However, all
> the major web languages have an appropriate url-escaping function that
> can be easily used.  There are some wrinkles - PHP has two of them,
> and the one you'd think to try first (urlencode(), rather than
> rawurlencode()) does the wrong thing (it turns spaces into +, rather
> than %20), but this is both immediately obvious ("frist+post+LOLOLOL")
> and not a security issue.  Even if you use an inappropriate escaping
> function, such as PHP's htmlspecialchars() function (escapes <>"& by
> default), it seems to work decently in current browsers.  (The failure
> mode there is that, by default, it doesn't escape ', but this will
> fail just as quickly on innocuous content as @srcdoc will when you
> forget to escape ".  As well, Opera apparently breaks if you don't
> escape # and tosses everything following it into the fragment, but
> that merely results in a malformed page, not a security leak.)
>
> 3. Data urls have some annoying boilerplate - you'll have to start
> every one of them with
> "data:text/html-sandboxed;charset=utf-8,%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E"
> (maybe include a <title> too?).  We can't really fix this.  It's not a
> *huge* deal, but it was a nice plus for @srcdoc.
>
> 4. Data urls are automatically unique-origin, and thus
> allow-same-origin will have no effect by default.  Is it reasonable to
> make allow-same-origin force data urls into the page's origin?
> Perhaps only the @src of that iframe, while data urls used in the
> content are still unique-origin?
>
> 5. URL size limits.  All the non-IE browsers appear to have fairly
> large or unlimited url size limits (from a quick google search, at
> least 80KB).  (I think FF is only limited by available memory?).  We
> don't have to worry about current IEs, since they don't understand
> data: at all as an iframe @src, and hopefully IE9 will have limits
> similar to the other browsers.  However, it's certainly possible that
> we could run into size limits in the future.  One use-case for this is
> wiki pages, which can potentially be quite large indeed, especially if
> data urls are used in the nested content.  An off-hand estimate from
> Aryeh on the largest wikipedia pages suggests that they may be in the
> 1MB range.
>
> 6. Fallback.  @srcdoc allows you to use @src to point to a page for
> users with browsers that don't support @srcdoc.  This isn't much use
> for actually *serving* the content (if they don't support @srcdoc, you
> probably can't rely on them to support @sandbox eithere), but it at
> least allows you to say "Sorry, your browser doesn't support secure
> iframes.  Upgrade, I guess."  Data urls using text/html-sandboxed have
> a failure mode of causing an attempted download, or, in IE, of causing
> the browser to navigate to the data url and then say that the page
> can't be displayed.  Both fallbacks are bad, but the @srcdoc one is
> more user-friendly.
>
> I think that's all the major issues.  #6 is a big one, #5 is
> potentially bad depending on the actual limits that browsers employ,
> and #3 is unfortunate.  #1, #2, and #4 look to be either non-issues or
> potentially solvable by the spec.
>
> ~TJ
>
Received on Tuesday, 26 January 2010 17:59:01 UTC

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