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Re: Zero-edits Counter Proposal for Issues 1 and 2 (Ping)

From: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:51:53 -0600
Message-ID: <dd0fbad1002171351ob780a1dlfd3adbf6eb72d529@mail.gmail.com>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, public-html@w3.org
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 17.02.2010 22:17, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>> Aren't all "safe" methods also "idempotent" by definition?
>
> Almost.
>
> Except for the side effects that a safe method is allowed to have, such
> incrementing hit counters etc.:
>
> "Naturally, it is not possible to ensure that the server does not generate
> side-effects as a result of performing a GET request; in fact, some dynamic
> resources consider that a feature. The important distinction here is that
> the user did not request the side-effects, so therefore cannot be held
> accountable for them."
>
> If you ignore those potential side effects as self-inflicted by the server
> (and not requested by the user), then yes, a safe method is also idempotent.

I think that a potentially important distinction here is that, say,
incrementing a hit counter is an incidental side effect of the
otherwise-innocuous page request.  A @ping-initiated request doesn't
have the server change as a side-effect, it's the entire point of the
request.  The server change can be thought of as a side-effect of the
*user interaction*, but as I said (and Jonas has now concurred with),
making a user-interaction-level distinction between safe and unsafe
methods is *not* done in practice, and experience shows that when it
has been attempted it's been a bad idea.  It seems to be a harmful
mixing of layers.

~TJ
Received on Wednesday, 17 February 2010 21:52:40 GMT

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