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Re: Request for Volunteers: Polyglot spec

From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 03:12:12 +0200
To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Cc: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>, Tony Ross <tross@microsoft.com>, Eliot Graff <eliotgra@microsoft.com>, Adrian Bateman <adrianba@microsoft.com>, "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>, "tag@w3.org" <tag@w3.org>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, "mjs@apple.com" <mjs@apple.com>, "plh@w3.org" <plh@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20100424031212763279.5d0a1e58@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Sam Ruby, Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:34:35 -0400:
> On 04/22/2010 09:06 PM, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>> Tony Ross, Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:48:27 +0000:
>>> On Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:26 PM, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>>>> PS: I hope that technical limitations rather than "this is simpler
>>>> for authors"
>>>> will guide the speccing of this spec. It should define a common 
>>>> denominator
>>>> for HTML5 and XHTMl5. But not anything more strict than that. E.g. 
>>>> I would
>>>> like to know when I can use a minimized '<p />'
>>>> *and* get the same DOM in both XHTML and HTML, rather than having a
>>>> "simple" rule which requires me to *always*  avoid the minimized<p />.
>>> 
>>> While sometimes the differences between HTML and XML parsers can
>>> result in islands of common ground, I find emphasizing a path that
>>> makes writing polyglot simpler for authors more useful. Why does
>>> someone really need to know the corner cases where they can use a
>>> minimized '<p />' if'<p></p>' works everywhere?
>> 
>> Because as I exemplified in the rest of that message, we can then have
>> more identical rules throughout, to the very issue. We can apply a
>> similar principle to more elements. To HTML5 void elements, to new void
>> elements etc.
> 
> Consider:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/244esft


Which had this code: <p/><b>...</b>

> My take (non-chair, etc): Leif, what you are proposing doesn't make 
> the rules more identical.  There are a few cases (like <li> and <td>) 
> where empty element syntax does no harm: namely because the only 
> valid tags that can follow are ones that would implicitly close the 
> element in question.  But there are many more elements, such as <i> 
> and <b>, are ones where <i/> and <b/> would most likely cause 
> behavior that is decidely unexpected.

I am sorry to have explained myself badly - or in to many words. 
Because, that code example would *not* be a valid polyglot example by 
the definition I tried to express. E.g. for <p/>, then I said: [1]

> a minimized <p /> must be immediately followed by the end tag 
> of its parent tag.   [substitute/parent tag/parent element/]
  [ or be ]
> immediately followed by  another 'p' element.

Thus, in the hypothetical situation that it had been valid to wrap a 
<p/> inside a <b>, then, this *would* have been valid:
<b><p/></b>. But not this: <b/><p/>. And not this: <p/><b/>.

And when you mention elements like <li/><li/>, then you are in fact 
using the same principle as I did when I said that a <p></p> 
immediately preceded by a minimized <p/> (aka: <p/><p></p>), should be 
valid.

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1102

-- 
leif halvard silli
Received on Saturday, 24 April 2010 01:12:52 GMT

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