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Re: ISSUE-81 (resource vs representation)

From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:35:10 -0700
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Message-id: <FFF592B1-A4B7-4ED4-9D27-158C7C55B406@apple.com>
To: "Nikunj R. Mehta" <nikunj.mehta@oracle.com>

On Sep 28, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Nikunj R. Mehta wrote:

>
> On Sep 27, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2009, at 2:45 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>
>>> Furthermore, as explained earlier, HTML5 is inconsistent in  
>>> itself; and that's something that should be fixed. If "Foobar" is  
>>> the thing identified by a URL (HTML5) then it simply can't be a  
>>> bag-of-bits at the same time.
>>
>> Natural language is context-sensitive. I don't think any actual  
>> confusion is caused.
>
>
> I could present counterexamples to your assertion. Here are a few  
> examples of the confusion caused by fungible use of the terms  
> resource, file, and object/document.

Before I go searching in the spec, may I ask if you were sincerely  
unable to find the answers to the following questions in normative  
spec text?

>
> A file cannot have infinite length - a resource can - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#concept-fetch-total
> A resource cannot be both a bag of bits and be an active object,  
> e.g., make a call or request another resource - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#fetching-resources
> A resource is a bag of bits, but fetching a resource brings back a  
> set of "out-of-band" headers as well. How does this make sense?  
> Where does the "bag" start or end? What exactly is "out-of-band"?
> A resource may not be external - e.g., a javascript: URL? What bits  
> does an "internal" resource imply?
> A resource may be a sub resource. However, what exactly is one -  
> does it have a URI without a fragment identifier? Can I tell based  
> on looking only at the URI whether something is a subresource? If  
> not, which parts of an HTML user agent be affected by the semantics  
> of subresources?
> Each entry in the list of pending master entries of an application  
> cache consists of a resource and a Document object. What is the  
> relation between the resource, the master resource, and the  
> resource's Document?
> Multiple application caches can contain the same resource. Does this  
> mean they each have their own bags of bits or just the URL of that  
> resource? When selecting an application cache, what is it that user  
> agents look for a bag of bits or the URI of the resource being  
> searched?
> When I think of cookies, they are per host and path, and not per  
> resource. What then is the meaning of a resource's cookies as  
> suggested in 3.1.3?
>
> Can "resource" be all of the following at the same time?

As far as I can tell, yes. Can you clarify which of the following  
properties you think are mutually exclusive?

> A resource may have metadata (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource may generate Request-URIs (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource may be external or not (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource has semantics (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource has a format or type (per section 2.1.1)
> A resource may have metadata (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource has an identifier (per section 2.5.1)
> A resource can be fetched (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be incrementally processed (per section 2.6)
> A resource may or may not be available (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be cached (per section 2.6)
> A resource may be type sniffed (per section 2.6)
> A resource has a host (per section 2.6.2)
> A resource can be either binary or text (per section 2.6.3)
> A resource has cookies (per section 3.1.3)
> Something may be a subresource (per section 4.2.4)
>
> Perhaps a certain amount of context switching will be required of  
> the reader, no matter what. Perhaps we expect every user agent  
> developer and Web author to understand this complexity. Regardless,  
> this document will certainly be adding to the entropy around  
> resources.
>
> I would like to hear your responses rather than spend a lot of my  
> time digging through the spec to find more instances of confusion  
> caused by the undefined terms "resource", "subresource", "external  
> resource" and their interchangeable use with other terms.

I'll do my best to reply further if you can provide the answers to my  
two questions above.

Regards,
Maciej
Received on Monday, 28 September 2009 23:35:53 GMT

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