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Re: Things in HTML that I disagree with (Was: evidence of harm)

From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:10:58 +0100
Message-ID: <55687cf80906251510n124efe7dr8c23ad3e316f063f@mail.gmail.com>
To: Shelley Powers <shelleyp@burningbird.net>, public-html@w3.org
Ian wrote:
 - in many cases where summary="" attributes are present on non-layout
 tables, they have bogus values that are less useful to users of ATs
 than no value at all. This harms AT users.

The data to back this up has not been provided, to my knowledge.

 >- in the few cases where summary="" values are actually useful, they
>   would be useful to all users, not just AT users, but using summary=""
>   means the data is hidden from non-AT users. This harms non-AT users.

This is your interpretation of the limited data available, which you
make a value judgement about in order to bolster your statement that
the summary causes harm. for example, there is now way to know whether
authors would provide the same information using a visible method, so
it cannot be said that its use in summary harms non AT users.


regards
stevef

2009/6/25 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, Shelley Powers wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Ian Hickson<ian@hixie.ch> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, Shelley Powers wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I would like to see how some of these arguments were coached. Could
>> >> you point out in whatever mailing list is appropriate, the arguments
>> >> discussing, say keeping the div element?
>> >
>> > I would love to, but I really don't have the bandwidth to do that. If
>> > anyone would like to volunteer to document such discussions, I'd be
>> > happy to advise. I really would love it if we could have a wiki or
>> > something that documented the discussions behind all the decisions in
>> > the spec so far. Personally though, I feel I must focus on taking
>> > HTML5 forward and not on the equally large task of documenting how it
>> > got where it is.
>>
>> Then, especially in comparison to your statement about you strongly
>> disagreeing with the microdata section, we have to assume that no, there
>> was never a situation where you vehemently opposed an addition (or
>> deletion) from the HTML5 spec, but allowed the working group to override
>> your objections.
>
> I listed a number of cases where that was the case. I understand that you
> may not believe me, but if you think I am lying then I can't help you. I'm
> not going to do mailing list archeology that you could equally well do
> yourself just because you imply that I am being untruthful.
>
>
>> >> Yes, the web is a messy place. I'm surprised that you're willing to
>> >> continue on as sole author of HTML 5, if you're so unhappy with the
>> >> state of the web, and the markup you're being forced to live with.
>> >
>> > Making the Web better is more important than my own personal sense of
>> > aethetics.
>>
>> But you are applying your own personal sense of aesthetics in your work.
>> You may not think you are, but every author does. The wise author is
>> aware of this, and acts accordingly.
>
> Naturally. I don't think anyone suggested that I do not.
>
>
>> Frankly, in my opinion, your sense of aesthetics shows in your pushback
>> against @summary. You specify it causes "harm", but nobody has proved
>> that it actually causes "harm".
>
> It has been shown that:
>
>  - in many cases where summary="" attributes are present on non-layout
>   tables, they have bogus values that are less useful to users of ATs
>   than no value at all. This harms AT users.
>
>  - in the few cases where summary="" values are actually useful, they
>   would be useful to all users, not just AT users, but using summary=""
>   means the data is hidden from non-AT users. This harms non-AT users.
>
> The data for this has been repeatedly documented on this list.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
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Received on Thursday, 25 June 2009 22:11:45 GMT

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