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Re: Issues of @summary and use of data for "decisions"

From: Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:37:26 -0500
Message-ID: <643cc0270906231537i7865d4cfp68a65055966809ae@mail.gmail.com>
To: Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>
Cc: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Simon Pieters<simonp@opera.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:58:56 +0200, Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> If an author is reluctant to include the summary visually, but still
>>> wants
>>> to provide a summary for non-visual users, then it can be hidden with
>>> CSS.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But the summary is part of caption -- what if the author wants both? A
>> caption for all people, and a table summary for the visually impaired?
>
>   <caption>Caption. <span class=summary>Summary.</span></caption>
>
>   caption .summary { display:block; height:0; overflow:hidden }
>
>
>>>> (For more info see sighted
>>>> use case).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE#head-50bd1f9b6606cd0d63fc7e525c1db226aac36d9b
>>>>
>>>> Most of the debate around providing a summary mechanism has been about
>>>> misunderstanding its purpose, so trying to merge its purpose with
>>>> another element's purpose may be problematic leading to more
>>>> confusion.
>>>
>>> I would argue the opposite: if authors don't know when to use summary=""
>>> and
>>> when to use <caption>, removing the choice should result in less
>>> confusion.
>>> (cf. <acronym>.)
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I see. Smooshing the two together will generate a miraculous epiphany.
>>
>> Do you have data to back up your hypothesis?
>
> No. Do you?
>
> Thinking about it, I've seen people cheer about <acronym> and <abbr> being
> merged into one, e.g.:
>
> http://xhtml.com/en/future/x-html-5-versus-xhtml-2/#x2-cool-acronym-gone
> http://robertnyman.com/2007/02/05/html-5-or-xhtml-2/
>
>
>>>> Related ref:
>>>> short and long text alternatives.
>>>> * These are different concepts with different uses and both should be
>>>> provided as separate functions. Short descriptions are read
>>>> automatically when the item is encountered. Long descriptions are read
>>>> only on user request.
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
>>>
>>> Are you saying that <caption> is read automatically, and summary="" is
>>> read
>>> only on user request?
>>>
>>> If it is important to have something short be read automatically, maybe
>>> the
>>> user agent could read the first sentence in the <caption> automatically,
>>> and
>>> the rest on user request?
>>>
>>
>> What?
>>
>> I...uh..
>>
>> what?
>
> Hmm. Let's take a step back.
>
>>>> Related ref:
>>>> short and long text alternatives.
>
> It was argued that captions are short, and summaries long. Correct?
>
>>>> * These are different concepts with different uses and both should be
>>>> provided as separate functions. Short descriptions are read
>>>> automatically when the item is encountered. Long descriptions are read
>>>> only on user request.
>
> If caption is the short description, and summary the long description, then
> with the proposal in HTML5 to use <caption> for both, the short description
> can be the first sentence in <caption>, and the long description the rest of
> the <caption>.
>
> Let's take an example.
>
>   <caption><strong>Results.</strong> Of 19 browsers, 9 passed 001.htm, all
>   passed 002.htm, 3 passed 003.xht and 004.xht, and all but one passed
>   005.foo.</caption>
>
> The short description (caption) is "Results.", and the long description
> (summary) is "Of 19 browsers, 9 passed 001.htm, all passed 002.htm, 3 passed
> 003.xht and 004.xht, and all but one passed 005.foo."
>

No offense Simon, but I think if there was confusion with
summary/caption, your solution will not aid in the confusion.

First of all, I don't believe anyone has said anything about summary
being a "long description". Summary is a place where specific
information is provided for the table, to make the table easier to
follow for those with visual impairments. It describes structure that
would be apparent just looking at the table if you could see if
visually.

A caption is just a brief description of the table. That's it. Useful
for everyone.

Your approach is to take this CSS approach, to hide pieces of the text
but expose the others. Where before we had two simple data buckets,
each with a different purpose, now we have supposedly one data bucket
with two pieces of data, differentiated using CSS.

I do not see the improvement.

Shelley

> --
> Simon Pieters
> Opera Software
>
Received on Tuesday, 23 June 2009 22:38:28 UTC

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