W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > February 2009

Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:24:32 +0000
Message-ID: <55687cf80902251224q40cb631epe2fbfc8b46fe028d@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Cc: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Hi David,
> could @summary not be taught to display to all?

Yes, why not make the @summary content able to be displayed by
browsers if they want to do it?
In this way @summary is still usable and supporting AT do not need to
change its implementation. and legacy AT will be supported in the
future.

Though I suggest if its universal access that is wanted, then
displaying it as a toolt ip doesn't cut it, since no browser provides
keyboard access to title attribute content.


regards
stevef

On 25/02/2009, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote:
> could @summary not be taught to display to all?
>
>
>  On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>
>  On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > what is the difference between your paragraph and what we already have?
> how
> > would it improve on @summary?
> >
>
>  The advantage is that the <p> is displayed to all users. Not just
>  users of AT clients.
>
>  / Jonas
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p to a
> > > table.  It might be possible to designate someting inside the table to
> > > surve
> > > the same purpurpose as @summary though.
> > >
> >
> > First off, i notice that you didn't answer my question *why* this is
> needed.
> >
> > Second, it seems like you didn't understand my suggestions for how to
> > associate a <p> with the <table>.
> >
> > What I'm suggesting is that we could add an attribute on <table> to
> > point to the element containing the summary. Such as:
> >
> > <p id="thisIsTheSummary">
> >  Summary goes here
> > </p>
> > <table summary-in="thisIsTheSummary">
> >  ...
> > </table>
> >
> > This way the AT client can find the summary associated with a particular
> > table.
> >
> >
> > > I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of
> > > @summary=""
> > > required to pass a test as well, miss use.
> > >
> >
> > I don't understand what you're saying here.
> >
> >
> > > I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the conerns of
> > > others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify
> @summary
> > > to do what we need for it to do.
> > >
> >
> > I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
> >
> > / Jonas
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > <p> this is a layout table.
> > > > <p> there is no summary for this table...
> > > > Now, where was that little d?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear
> markup
> > > > which @summary provides today.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a separate
> > > paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table.
> > >
> > > Could you elaborate on why this is needed?
> > >
> > > If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>, would
> > > that address all the problems you have with this proposed solution? Or
> > > adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting this
> > > as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the
> > > <p> solution.
> > >
> > > Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to exist
> > > with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more than
> > > I did.
> > >
> > > / Jonas
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman
> <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce of
> the
> > > > > conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has not
> > > > > been
> > > > > shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what can
> be
> > > > > and
> > > > > has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as
> @summary.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Two suggestions I've seen so far are:
> > > >
> > > > * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table.
> > > > * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of the
> > > > table to also be allowed to contain a summary.
> > > >
> > > > Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users
> > > > rather than just ones that use AT clients.
> > > >
> > > > Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title
> > > > attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add descriptive
> > > > information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally available
> > > > in visual UAs in the form of tooltips.
> > > >
> > > > / Jonas
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jonnie Appleseed
> > > > with his
> > > > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> > > > reducing technology's disabilities
> > > > one byte at a time
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jonnie Appleseed
> > > with his
> > > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> > > reducing technology's disabilities
> > > one byte at a time
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jonnie Appleseed
> > with his
> > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> > reducing technology's disabilities
> > one byte at a time
> >
> >
> >
>
>  --
>  Jonnie Appleseed
>  with his
>  Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>  reducing technology's disabilities
>  one byte at a time
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 20:25:18 GMT

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