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Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:07:59 -0800
Message-ID: <63df84f0902251207u23a669at4b66d083b82af4f0@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote:
> what is the difference between your paragraph and what we already have?  how
> would it improve on @summary?

The advantage is that the <p> is displayed to all users. Not just
users of AT clients.

/ Jonas

> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p to a
>> table.  It might be possible to designate someting inside the table to
>> surve
>> the same purpurpose as @summary though.
>
> First off, i notice that you didn't answer my question *why* this is needed.
>
> Second, it seems like you didn't understand my suggestions for how to
> associate a <p> with the <table>.
>
> What I'm suggesting is that we could add an attribute on <table> to
> point to the element containing the summary. Such as:
>
> <p id="thisIsTheSummary">
>  Summary goes here
> </p>
> <table summary-in="thisIsTheSummary">
>  ...
> </table>
>
> This way the AT client can find the summary associated with a particular
> table.
>
>> I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of
>> @summary=""
>> required to pass a test as well, miss use.
>
> I don't understand what you're saying here.
>
>> I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the conerns of
>> others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify @summary
>> to do what we need for it to do.
>
> I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
>
> / Jonas
>
>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <p> this is a layout table.
>>> <p> there is no summary for this table...
>>> Now, where was that little d?
>>
>> I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate?
>>
>>> Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear markup
>>> which @summary provides today.
>>
>> This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a separate
>> paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table.
>>
>> Could you elaborate on why this is needed?
>>
>> If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>, would
>> that address all the problems you have with this proposed solution? Or
>> adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting this
>> as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the
>> <p> solution.
>>
>> Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to exist
>> with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more than
>> I did.
>>
>> / Jonas
>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce of the
>>>> conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has not
>>>> been
>>>> shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what can be
>>>> and
>>>> has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as @summary.
>>>
>>> Two suggestions I've seen so far are:
>>>
>>> * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table.
>>> * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of the
>>> table to also be allowed to contain a summary.
>>>
>>> Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users
>>> rather than just ones that use AT clients.
>>>
>>> Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title
>>> attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add descriptive
>>> information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally available
>>> in visual UAs in the form of tooltips.
>>>
>>> / Jonas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonnie Appleseed
>>> with his
>>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>> reducing technology's disabilities
>>> one byte at a time
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jonnie Appleseed
>> with his
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>> reducing technology's disabilities
>> one byte at a time
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 20:08:40 GMT

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