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Re: Caption and summary survey

From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:54:27 +0000
Message-ID: <55687cf80902200154o51196abbi72a4f30985774658@mail.gmail.com>
To: joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie
Cc: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>, wai-liaison@w3.org
Hi Josh, thanks for providing clarifications.

>Some may need configuration (like Window Eyes, but I thought it did work
out of the box)

I tested window eyes version 7 default settings

When cursoring through content using the arrow keys (browse mode) window
eyes announces caption and then summary on a data table, the same when
navigating by table using the T key.
I tested JAWS 9
when reading the page, in virtual PC cursor mode, the summary is announced
before the caption
same cursoring through the content the content, when naviagting using the T
key in virtual PC cursor mode, caption is announced, then summary.


2009/2/20 Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>

> Hi Leif,
> > When it tested Jaws, I  understood that my demo version did not work as
> Joshue descibred.
> Thanks for doing those tests. There are a couple of things worth
> pointing out:
> 1) @summary is a long descriptor of table data.
> 2) Caption, is a terse descriptor, rather like a heading for a table.
> 3) How HTML content is dealt with/announced is primarily a user agent
> issue. The order in this case is /usually/ <caption>, then <summary> but
> it /could/ also be determined by the order they appear in the source
> code etc. It is usual to put the <caption> first and the @summary second
> but the the issue of 'what gets announced when' is peripheral IMO.
> 4) A user agent like a screen reader performs other functions like
> navigation and does not merely /read/ the page. Please note, I have many
> times come across HTML elements and attributes /not/ being read out or
> announced when an element is given focus (and I know they are in the
> code where they should be as I put them there). This can for example be
> due to issues with a graphics card not playing nice with a version of
> the screen reader. Anyway, I am making the point that screen readers are
> not perfect and a quick once off test may not be truly reflective, and I
> mention this an an aside.
> 5) You may not be an experienced user of AT. I am not having a go, but
> screen readers are very complex. It took me a couple of years of
> observing and learning from blind friends and colleagues before I became
> competent and understood many of their quirks. So with all due respect
> while something may not have worked for you as you expected, it may be
> other reasons than a fault in the markup as such.
> The fact is that complex data tables still need and have a long
> descriptor in the form of @summary. In my experience FWIW, it is well
> supported out of the box by Assistive Technology. Some may need
> configuration (like Window Eyes, but I thought it did work out of the
> box) in order to announce it but these are primarily /user agent/
> issues. The specification needs a long descriptor in the first place.
> If you wish to see other useful things you can do. WIth Jaws press the
> 'T' key and you can jump from table to table with the <caption> and
> @summaries being announced, very useful. Also you can use INSERT + F3
> and bring up the Virtual HTML dialogue which allows you to display the
> list of any present HTML elements in a page, go to 'Tables' in the and
> any tables present will be listed in new dialogue box that you can
> navigate to using your cursor keys.
> Cheers
> Josh

with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
Received on Friday, 20 February 2009 09:55:09 UTC

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