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{minutes} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-27

From: Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:03:05 +0200
To: "HTML WG" <public-html@w3.org>, "public-html-wg-announce@w3.org" <public-html-wg-announce@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.uzbyzfuq64w2qv@anne-van-kesterens-macbook.local>

                       HTML Weekly Teleconference

27 Aug 2009







      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Open Items
          2. [5]Issue-4/Action-108 html-versioning / Larry Masinter
          3. [6]Issue-10/Action-135 video-smil / Mike Smith
          4. [7]Issue-13/Action-86 handling-http-401-status / Julian
          5. [8]Issue-74/Action-132 canvas-accessibility / Steve
          6. [9]Issue-35/Action-138 aria-processing / Steve Faulkner
          7. [10]Issue-9 video-synchronization
          8. [11]Issue-11 default-encoding / Shawn Medero
          9. [12]chairs
         10. [13]are the resolutions of closed issues easy enough to
      * [14]Summary of Action Items

    <mjs> rubys: you're already in it, aren't you?

    <gavin_> but he never got a welcome!

    <rubys> I went back and checked... December and Jan.

    <rubys> Perhaps I'll get a thanks when I leave. :-)

    <mjs> weren't you a member some time before you became Chair?

    <mjs> rubys: btw - I'm going to reply to Dick and suggest that
    ISSUE-9 should track SYMM's interest in media synchronization, that
    the next step is a concrete proposal, and that TPAC is probably too
    late to start on a proposal

    <mjs> rubys: does that all sound reasonable to you?

    <rubys> mjs: weren't you a member before you were a chair?

    <rubys> TPAC does seem a bit late...

    <mjs> rubys: I didn't get a welcome either, just congratulations

    <rubys> (P.S. you don't need to check with me on things like this)
    (I never got a congrats)

    <mjs> I know I don't *need* to check with you, but I'd rather be a
    little extra cautious until you, Paul and I have settled into a good
    model for working together

    <rubys> fair enough

    <Hixie> rubys: i thought i sent a similar mail when you were
    appointed chair

    <mjs> heycam`: thanks!



    <pimpbot> Title: Why is HTML Suddenly Interesting? - O'Reilly Radar
    (at radar.oreilly.com)

    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7428] Safari 4 preloads media and FF 3.5
    doesn't in <audio> tag; perhaps HTML5 sections are
    unclear or need a 'preloading' attribute added.


    <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7428] Safari 4 preloads media and FF 3.5
    doesn't in <audio> tag; perhaps HTML5 sections are
    unclear or need a 'preloading' attribute added." (2 messages in


    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7437] The link for "mutable" points to
    textareas - no mention made of radio, button, input, password types
    Aug/0327.html> 4** [Bug 7437] New: The link for "mutable" points to
    textareas - no mention made of radio, button, input, password types


    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7438] refine Status section to clarify
    difference between editor's bug list and the working-group issue
    Aug/0329.html> 4** [Bug 7438] New: refine Status section to clarify
    difference between editor's bug list and the working-group issue


    <Philip> gsnedders|work: "Well, Philip's in Spain, so that may take
    a while" - no I wasn't

    <Philip> You're not a very good stalker if you don't realise when
    I've gone home again

    <Philip> (Any lack of responsiveness over the past few days was due
    to illness instead)

    <Philip> (Any continued lack of responsiveness is due to playing
    Monkey Island)

    <anne> Philip, still around? can you do
    [22]http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html again on your larger

      [22] http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html

    <pimpbot> Title: Charsets (at philip.html5.org)

    <anne> Philip, also, that page does not appear to be linked from

    <anne> -_-

    <jgraham> [23]http://xkcd.com/386/

      [23] http://xkcd.com/386/

    <pimpbot> Title: xkcd - A Webcomic - Duty Calls (at xkcd.com)

    <jgraham> (and it's "someone is wrong on the internet")

    <jgraham> I'll leave my pedant tag open for now

    <Philip> anne: I might be able to if you remind me some time next

    heartbeat: [24]http://www.w3.org/News/2009#item149

      [24] http://www.w3.org/News/2009#item149

    <pimpbot> Title: Archive of W3C News in 2009 (at www.w3.org)

    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7441] New: The specification only ever uses
    the prefix:localName convention for some attributes in the XML
    namespace and whenever it does it is pretty explicit about it.
    xml:id is never mentioned outside this section and the prefixes svg
    and html are never used.
    Aug/0332.html> 4** [Bug 7440] New: The markup of the example does
    not use <th> for Legs and Tails like the actual tab


    <kliehm> issue-48?

    <kliehm> Issue-48?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-48 -- Should user-agents generate quotes for the q
    element -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

      [26] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

    <trackbot> ISSUE-48 -- Should user-agents generate quotes for the q
    element -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

      [27] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

    <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-48 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

    kliehm, going to do that daily? :)

    <jgraham> The issue status "RAISED" makes me think of zombies

    <mjs> hi everyone

    <hsivonen> mjs: hi and congratulations for the chairship

    <mjs> hsivonen: thanks!

    <jgraham> +1

    +1 from me too; forgot about it yesterday

    <jgraham> Or I could be polite and congratulate you in a less
    annoying way ;)

    <mjs> it's the thought that counts - I guess?

    <jgraham> mjs: Seriusly, congratulations

    <mjs> jgraham: thank you

    <Dashiva> Yeah, where are all the formal objections?

    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7442] New: Java applets are never
    conforming, and sometimes don't work


    <mjs> gsnedders|work: that would indeed be more in the spirit of the
    Working Group

    <hsivonen> gsnedders|work: Chairs aren't a WG Decision

    <Dashiva> I was expecting something from lastweek, at least

    <jgraham> hsivonen: You only need a very loose understanding of
    Process to start bandying about FOs in the HTMLWG

    <jgraham> Dashiva: Maybe mjs _is_ mrlastweek

    <jgraham> When he eats cheese before bedtime

    <mjs> If I really was MLW I'd surely have a good post flaming myself

    <Dashiva> mjs: or maybe that's just what you want us to think

    <Dashiva> Clever!

    <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7442] Java applets are never conforming, and
    sometimes don't work


    <DanC> now try, rubys

    kliehm, given the procedure for other issues it would make more
    sense to file bugs for your issues or file new issues

    kliehm, the second comment is not even about the q element anymore
    and whether quotes should be rendered for the q element is pretty
    clear by now

    <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

    <trackbot> Date: 27 August 2009

    <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-27 *PLEASE-READ*
    from Sam Ruby on 2009-08-26 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from
    July to September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

    <paulc> Paulc just joined the call

    <scribe> scribe: annevk

    <DanC> silly zakim...

    <MikeSmith> scribenick: annevk

    <DanC> phpht

    MikeSmith, that's not needed

Open Items

Issue-4/Action-108 html-versioning / Larry Masinter

    LM: I'm not sure that it's necessary to keep the issue open
    ... I don't know if there's a schedule for completing this work
    ... I don't have objections to closing if that's what you want to do

    DC: I want us to write down the resolution

    SR: My understanding is that there is not a proposal before Last

    DC: But what do we decide?
    ... About legacy-compat and the DOCTYPE?

    SR: Are you suggesting something else?

    DC: It's not the whole document, is it?
    ... Are we documenting the decision?

    SR: Lets close ACTION-108 and discuss ISSUE-4 on the mailing list
    ... I will post about it and I think LM will too

Issue-10/Action-135 video-smil / Mike Smith

    DC: OK

    SR: what is the next action?

    MS: I think we can close ACTION-135 and am not sure what's next
    ... we got a reply off-list

    <DanC> I expect something like "let's close html-versioning as
    discussed in the draft, section XYZ: <!doctype HTML> and <!doctype
    HTML system "about:legacy-compat"> "

    MS: not sure whether it was on or off-list, but we did get a reply

    SR: It does not appear to be on list
    ... it does not look like ISSUE-10 is ready to be closed
    ... I would like to demote it to raised
    ... objections?

    DC: can you share the contents of the email?

    SR: no concrete suggestions I believe; he had to think about it more

    MS: he agreed that the initial issue on the attribute names was ok
    because of the removal and name changes
    ... he's still interested in the video synchronization issue
    ... I think we can probably close ISSUE-10

    SR: I think he said was not happy with closing it

    MS: ok

Issue-13/Action-86 handling-http-401-status / Julian Reschke

    JR: I followed up with J Kemp and T Broyer did as well and I don't
    think we saw a response
    ... I'd suggest to try to close it again and see if he objects again

    SR: ok; I'm quite ok with that

    <MikeSmith> issue-13?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User
    Agent Authentication Forms -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13

      [30] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13

    PaulC: are you talking about closing ISSUE-13 or the action?

    JR: yes

Issue-74/Action-132 canvas-accessibility / Steve Faulkner

    SF: I'm on the call

    <DanC> (was that a decision to close issue 13? if so, the scribe
    doesn't seem to have gotten it)

    SR: perhaps we can move the target?

    MC: we have a couple of issues that we need to address

    <rubys> decision was to mark issue 13 for closure on 2009-09-03 to
    see if that flushes out any objections

    MC: e.g. rich editable text, clipboard content

    <DanC> ok, thanks, rubys

    MC: people are making prototypes

    RS: we need another couple of weeks

    SR: [...] anything else?

    <DanC> Sam: so you're not yet comfortable pulling the date into Sep,
    though that might happen?

    Cynthia: we're making good progress

    <DanC> Rich: right


    <DanC> (ACTION-132 on Steve Faulkner is done to my satisfaction)

    SR: so we can close ACTION-132?

    RESOLUTION: close ACTION-132

    <masinter> action-132?

    <trackbot> ACTION-132 -- Steve Faulkner to report on canvas
    accessibility -- due 2009-08-28 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/132

      [31] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/132

Issue-35/Action-138 aria-processing / Steve Faulkner

    <DanC> close action-132

    <trackbot> ACTION-132 Report on canvas accessibility closed

    SR: the specific action was about a matrix

    SF: inspirated by the new spec text but also work on the other one
    ... for something that the PFWG considers appropriate
    ... not by next week

    CS: the accessibility task force works on something very similar

    RS: getting a lot of questions how this actually maps to the
    ... to do this well we need a full mapping of all the features

    CS: that is what the task force is working on
    ... we do not have the new features of HTML5 yet, but we're getting

    SR: move the target to the tenth?

    <DanC> (gee... we're up to 22 ports in use; our reservation went up
    from 15 to 20, but maybe that's not enough.)

    SF: it sounds that if I'm going to be working with the Task Force
    it's best to move it back a week

    <DanC> it=ACTION-138 on Steve Faulkner?

    CS: we have a weekly accessibility call on this

    <DanC> action-138 due 10 Sep

    <trackbot> ACTION-138 Produce a matrix based on Henri's work due
    date now 10 Sep

Issue-9 video-synchronization

    SR: what specific action are you taking?

    CS: video synchronization
    ... follow up with Shawn to see if he can work on it

    DS: It was not clear to me what the issue is

    <DanC> (odd... I thought we had an issue on video captioning, though
    I don't see one.)

    DS: things are intertwingled
    ... I think working on accessibility of the media elements will
    resolve these issues

    CS: It's not my area of expertise so I don't know if this is the
    same issue

    <DanC> +1 keep caption stuff separate

    DS: the issue came up initially about syncing two videos to play
    them side-by-side
    ... or having captions in sync with the video

    RS: is someone looking for alternatives for videos?
    ... e.g. multiple language tracks?

    <DanC> the "you don't; it's beyond the requirements we're trying to
    meet" sounds like a proposal to put to the group

    DS: JF and I have been working on that and are organizing a workshop
    on this topic

    <Laura> Multimedia Accessibility <Audio> <Video>

    <Laura> [32]http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty

      [32] http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty

    DS: we want to host the workshop before TPAC

    CS: I'm trying to convince Shawn to go to that

    <Laura> Request for PFWG WAI review of multimedia accessibility
    requirements <audio> <video>


      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0421.html

    DS: it's not free-for-all

    <DanC> (I suppose
    l is pretty close to "you don't")

      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0694.html

    <dsinger> sean hayes

    DS: we want people with expertise and experience to make some

    s/Shawn/Sean Hayes/s

    <dsinger> Microsoft accessibility group, UK-based

    DS: for this particular issue is that we should defer it to a future
    version of HTML
    ... the synchronization of multiple media elements

    <DanC> +1 postpone to a future version for ISSUE-9:

    DS: accessibility aids should be addressed as an accessibility
    ... how we synchronize transcripts and videos
    ... what do we do without cue ranges

    <DanC> trackbot has an IRC interface for making new issues: ISSUE:
    caption support for <video>

    <Laura> Followup Re: Request for PFWG WAI review of multimedia
    accessibility requirements <audio> <video>


      [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009May/0008.html

    <rubys> action cynthia to follow up with sean hayes due next week

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - Follow up with sean hayes due next
    week [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-09-03].

    CS: captioning should be done for this version, but I'm not sure
    which issue that is

Issue-11 default-encoding / Shawn Medero

    <DanC> action-140: on captioning and <video>

    <trackbot> ACTION-140 Follow up with sean hayes due next week notes

    <DanC> shawn medero, aka smedero

    SM: modified text was proposed in response to the bugs MS filed and
    that's kind of dangling right now

    SR: it's quite ok to close the issue if the bugs are opened

    SM: fine with me
    ... i just raised the issue on behalf of the i18n WG

    <DanC> (is Addison on the cc list for the bug or whatever? does
    Adison know how to use bugzilla?)

    SM: if the text is accepted they're ok with closing the issue

    <smedero> DanC, yes

    smedero, poitners to the bugs?

    <smedero> [36]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7380

      [36] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7380

    <rubys> [37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7380

      [37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7380

    <rubys> [38]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7381

      [38] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7381

    <smedero> [39]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7381

      [39] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7381

    <rubys> Issue-37 html-svg-mathml / Adrian Bateman

    DanC, so the answer to your question is no

    <mjs> sorry I'm late, traffic was disastrous

    <smedero> Addison's notes on those two bugs are here:

      [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1048.html

    <mjs> the telecon is full

    AB: from our perspective we're looking at this from ISSUE-41
    ... we do not really need two issues open for this we think

    <mjs> ok

    AB: we don't have a particular point of view either way on whether
    SVG 1.2 should be included

    SR: the current status is that ISSUE-37 is getting a number of bugs
    ... I don't think there was anyone with objections to that, but I
    need to check

    <masinter> issue-37?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html
    -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37

      [41] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37

    SR: not sure if there's particular need for both ISSUE-37 and
    ISSUE-41 to be open

    <rubys> ISSUE-48: UA-q-quotes / Shawn Medero ISSUE-60:
    html5-xhtml-namespace / Shawn Medero ISSUE-66: image analysis
    heuristics / Matthew May

    SR: at the very least tell Mark that ISSUE-XXX is under review

    <smedero> On ISSUE-48 and ISSUE-60 - I opened those on behalf of
    other folks and don't have anything to add.

    SR: we have three issues proposed for closure

    [scribe missed the numbers -- check email archives]

    <DanC> (is this matt's comment on 48?
    l )

      [42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1126.html

    <kliehm> I sent an email to the list re Issue-48. We can close the
    issue and open two new bugs

    <richardschwerdtfe> I agree with Matt May's comments

    MM: the issue that was originally raised is that XXX should be
    stricken and I stick to that

    <Laura> objection to closing 66: image analysis heuristics

    MM: the text doesn't add anything to the document


      [43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1116.html

    MM: I don't know what the next step is
    ... somebody needs to either... I mean... remove the sentence or say
    why they're not going to


      [44] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1126.html

    MM: it seems to have hung[?] out there

    SR: I don't see a bug report mentioned
    ... will make sure there's one

    MM: k

    <rubys> ISSUE-51: aria-curie / Mike Smith ISSUE-53: mediatypereg /
    Julian Reschke ISSUE-54: doctype-legacy-compat / Julian Rescke
    ISSUE-61: conformance-language / Dan Connolly ISSUE-64:
    web-sockets-scope-req / Dan Connolly

    <rubys> ack

    SR: these issues are satisfied by the persons who raised them
    ... if people feel otherwise please let us know


      [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1328.html

    DC: someone just complained about <q>


      [46] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1328.html


      [47] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1328.html

    SR: not appropriate to close this one just yet

    <paulc> Which issue is this about?

    DC: I think he's just asking for clarification, not change how code
    is written

    <kliehm> That was me, I took a closer look and I agree with annevk
    that bug reports are sufficient

    <rubys> issue 48

    <DanC> ISSUE-48?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-48 -- Should user-agents generate quotes for the q
    element -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [48]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

      [48] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48

    <mjs> I note that my suggestions to close are all for next thursday
    anyway, to give the space between two telecons

    <kliehm> Right, close it

    MS: does that mean we can close the issue?

    SR: fine with me

    [lots of cheering in the background]

    SR: MC do you want to talk about the HTML Task Force?

    MC: still seeking to appoint a joint Task Force
    ... the reason we want a Task Force is that we want to focus on a
    specific set of issues and not be distracted
    ... it would be under the process of both of the Working Groups
    ... the PFWG feels this would be an important channel
    ... deliverables would be given to both WGs and the host WGs decide
    what to do with them

    SR: I talked with PC and MS and MS had some reservations that he'll
    write up
    ... unfortunately he cannot attend the call due to logistics

    <rubys> mjs: care to comment on this topic via IRC?

    MC: we're anxious to get this forum and have a desire to broaden the

    <mjs> rubys, sure

    <mjs> my comments are this:

    <Laura> From last week's Teleconference: "Sam: no objections. I'll
    set up a poll."

    <Laura> [49]http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090820#l-610

      [49] http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090820#l-610

    <mjs> rubys, actually, I can go to Dave Singer's office and share
    his phone

    <mjs> rubys, can we table this issue while I walk over? ~5min

    Laura, it was later found out there were objections

    <mjs> (back in a few)

    PC: If we can go back to the Task Force item; what are the concerns
    about IP?

    SR: DS are you still on the call and can you comment on them?

    DS: one of my concerns was under which group would the disclosure
    policy fall
    ... do you have to join the HTML WG or the PFWG?

    [DS explains the IP issue]

    MC: I don't think that this in practice will be an issue

    PC: we had these questions before and people can join both WGs to
    alleviate the issues
    ... another solution we did was that both WGs publish the document
    ... are we talking about creating a joint document or input for
    documents created separately by each WG?

    MC: we're not clear on that yet, looking in both directions

    <DanC> phpht

    RS: HTML5 has a dependency on ARIA; so that's a separate deliverable
    ... it seems that joining both groups or agreeing to both policies
    seems the appropriate thing to do

    MC: I don't think joining both groups is an option everyone has

    RS: what about agreeing to policies of both groups?

    MC: not sure

    <paulc> See Status section of

      [50] http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-xpath20-20070123/

    PC: I'm certainly willing to help with this

    SR: at least talk with MS and MC

    CS: we already have one joint task force between PFWG and HTML in
    ... the one on accessibility mapping

    <Laura> Request for Input on organizing accessibility API binding
    work in PFWG and HTML WG


      [51] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32212/axs-API-impl-Org/results

    SR: can you report on this next week?

    PC: that's the idea; together with MS

    MS: what I wanted to say about this is that a designated place to
    talk about this is good
    ... I'd like it to be as open to participation as well



    SR: two new chairs: PC and MJS

    MJS: hi Working Group; I've been here for a while, you probably know
    me. I'd like to focus on identifying the key issues that prevent us
    from getting to Last Call and solving them. I'd hope to keep my own
    technical opinions outside of these discussions.
    ... I want to focus on getting them resolved

    PC: I'm Paul Cotton and live in Canada and travel to Seattle back
    and forth. Involved with the W3C for over 10 years. Did the XML
    Query WG for six years. We've had 1200 last call comments on that
    ... That WG published 8 recommendations
    ... Work was very spread out where the TFs did a lot of the work and
    the WG made the decisions
    ... I was also involved in the XXX policy WG and have been elected
    to the AB and the TAG

    <Julian> s/xxx/WS/

    PC: I'm here to make sure that we can produce one or more
    recommendations. And to be sure I'm not going to take Microsoft
    technical positions.
    ... I want to get to a successful Last Call and even more important
    a Candidate Recommendation that can be widely used by users/vendors

    CW: I don't know what to say. What a long strange trip it's been
    ... I still plan on being involved but probably less than in the
    ... It will be interesting to see how quick you can get something
    out there.

    <Laura> Chris: Thanks for all of your work

    DS: thanks CW for everything you've done

    SR: hear hear

    [scribe agrees!]

are the resolutions of closed issues easy enough to find?

    [but is muted]

    <ChrisWilson> zaki, take up item 7

    DC: there are a couple of issues that got closed recently and I was
    thinking about changing the closed issues to clearly mark the
    ... have to run

    <mjs> DanC, I agree, I'll try to do that for the ones I closed

    DC: something to think about

    SR: meeting adjourned

    [scribe says bye]

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]

Anne van Kesteren
Received on Thursday, 27 August 2009 17:03:53 UTC

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